Welcome Guest!!!

Thank you for visiting the GM Kappa Performance Forum. This forum is the only performance oriented forum for all GM Kappa Platform Enthusiasts.  We hope you will join and share your experiences.  Becoming a member is FREE! If you want to advertise on this forum, email KappaPerformance at yahoo.com.


Registration required to view the forum attachments. Below is a sample of the current top 25 topics.
Supporting Membership has many advantages.


More information on becoming a supporting member or vendor can be found on the sub forum; Site Help and Suggestions; thread - Supporting Members and Vendors.

Author Topic: Project Alamo Discussion Thread  (Read 4820 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SKY888

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 2287
  • Karma: +3/-3
  • Location: near you
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2014, 11:15:13 PM »
Aaaaaaa
OK
I had that wrong.   Thats for the correction.
I did a little research and see that the billet internals on the GTX models really shine at higher PSI, specifically above 20.

I wonder, In a round about way though, if that could allow for a slightly smaller turbo, or one with a smaller AR to be used for faster spool and take advantage of the increased power up top.



When I was applying for Garrett sponsorship a couple of years ago.... This is what they explained to me about their philosophy of the GTX-r turbos.

If a person who likes the power of the gt35r turbo, but doesn't like the lag...... He can get a sLightly smaller turbo like a GTX30 instead. With the gtx30 turbo, he will spool faster than a gt35r, but will get a similar power up top.

The same concept applies if a person is trying to decide between a gt35 vs similar size turbo (different brand). The gtx30 will be a good choice instead of buying the other brand turbo (similar size to gt35) because the gtx30 turbo will spool faster, but will result to a similar whp.

With this, I'm assuming that although efr turbos spool faster to a similar sized gt-r turbos, Garrett developed the gtx-r to counter the advantages of efr turbos.



Sorry WERKS, if the thread was derailed a bit with these Garrett vs EFR.


Both are wonderful turbos, and for me they are both great choices.

The owner of project Alamo chose EFR because of good & valid reasons.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 11:20:08 PM by SKY888 »
COMPOUND TURBOS (GT2860r & GT4294r) goal 800hp


CAR SPECS and PHOTOS:
https://www.facebook.com/SKY888CompoundTurbo

SPONSORS:
aeroforce.com, nitrofreeze.com, forgestar.com, splitsec.com, turbosmartonline.com, k1technologies.com, supertechperformance.com, specclutch.com, rceng.com, statusracing.com, tceperformanceproducts.com, burnsstainless.com, performanceautowerks.com, ddmworks.com, turbowerx.com, BTF

Offline kwtoxman

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +3/-4
  • Location: GTA, Canada
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2014, 12:05:46 PM »
With this, I'm assuming that although efr turbos spool faster to a similar sized gt-r turbos, Garrett developed the gtx-r to counter the advantages of efr turbos.

One basically sees in the posted graphs what you are saying, as the gtx model has more high rpm hp and tq, though the spool difference is still the issue with either garrett, and the gtx can't counter that spool advantage. In the 2 earlier graphs the even with the smaller a/r housing garrett GT-R model is worse for spool, being about 500 rpm later than the EFR. The other graph shows what that means for hp and tq which is earlier tq and hp for the EFR. Once the garrett catches up at around 3800 rpm the hp and tq curves are similar (garrett has a little more from 3800 to 5250, then EFR has a little more to redline).

With the GTX-R with the larger a/r housing late spool gets even worse. The EFR is now spooling about 750 rpm earlier. That means for example, that at around 3400 rpm the EFR is producing 25 psi versus the garrett with 10 psi, which translates into about 100 more hp and 150 lb/ft more tq. At 4000 rpm the GTX catches up and then leads the EFR with about 25 more hp and tq, getting a little less as it moves to redline.

Taking all that aside, the area under the torque and power curve is the best measure of performance for a street car. The EFR wins both there against both turbos, again due to it's significantly broader curves that just result in more total overall area.

Plus, as I said earlier and noted in other sources, these tests do not show how the super light EFR turbine wheel comes into play, which is in very fast spool, be it for the early spool or for just hittiin the gas at any time, including shift recovery times. The responsiveness of the EFR on the street is a big advantage.


Im just sick of the EFR bandwagon.
It's the new thing, but them and Garrett are on par with each other.

Only you could see these as on par. And you've always said such so I don't expect any change.

But for the sake of the forum, the garret's may show well against EFR's in peak hp and tq #'s and where those two single #'s come up on dyno graphs, but that is it. I don't know where you get it that Garrets hit max boost sooner, so wrong. They don't compare to EFRs for area under the curves, early spool, or fast spool, all of which in a street car are the most important measures. There is a reason that so many people are talking about and using the EFR's,..... in many different car platforms, from civics to GT-R's.





If the OP wants max hp and tq, then one can get a bigger EFR, end up with similar initial spool rpm to the GTX above, but also get more hp and tq over that garret. The 7670 is rated to flow 64 lbs/min. And there are bigger options.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 02:39:57 PM by kwtoxman »
:ca2:

Offline kwtoxman

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +3/-4
  • Location: GTA, Canada
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2014, 12:49:23 PM »
You really should be more specific. For area under the curve, you must be talking about the GTX curves above. Hp area under the curve looks very similar overall between the two turbos. A calculation would be needed to see which has more total. For simplicity, I call it even. For tq, the EFR area under the curve is notably more. Hence EFR wins overall.

I'm hung up on street car, because you keep pointing to a couple #'s and saying the garretts are comparable to EFRs. For a drag car one can argue that, but for a street car, no. We'll see where the OP goes.

I like EFR's because real world results show its advantages. It is the best option at this time as most everyone other than you thinks. Unlike you, I have no skin in the game. I don't own an EFR or garrett. We get it, you love your garrett. If another turbo comes out in the future that is shown to be better, I'll prefer it.

By all means post your other evidence if you want. Just compare apples to apples. No WOT box interventions, or E85 vs normal gas. At least I've posted actual data proving my points.

You obviously don't get the last statement if you go on about bigger turbo equals more lag. That doesn't contribute a cent to the discussion.

As for you car comparison. compare apples to apples instead of oranges. Instead of comparing turbo to turbo you add a wrinkle like a WOT box to one car to prove your point. Doing that proves nothing. It is no longer a reasonable comparison of turbo to turbo. A WOT box changes everything when used on a car, so compare the cars both with WOT boxes, or none at all. I'm not big on WOT boxes either as they are a great way to start breaking things on a car when used with 375+ whp, but that's not relevant any way.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 01:52:51 PM by kwtoxman »
:ca2:

Offline kwtoxman

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +3/-4
  • Location: GTA, Canada
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2014, 01:42:49 PM »
WRT the build and the build goals, I may have been underestimating the EFR turbo size in my first comments  :o

Found this lnf kappa build. http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/v8this-big-power-solstice-build-tread-305557/
:ca2:

Offline kwtoxman

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +3/-4
  • Location: GTA, Canada
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2014, 02:02:31 PM »
Your appeal to authority is nothing more than a base logical fallacy. I'm not surprised as the other logic I've seen here isn't very reasonable or proper. Learn how to properly calculate area under the curve (hint peak hp and tq #'s mean little to AUC calculations). Keep cherry picking your facts and ignoring others. You will obviously never get it. Very funny that you now say real world driving is important as I posted the same thing which I called the street, and now all of a sudden you say essentially the same thing. So I'll finish my comments on EFR/Garrett and your info with this post for the sake of the forum and thread and let the forum members interpret for themselves.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 02:40:41 PM by kwtoxman »
:ca2:

Offline Sol Asylum

  • Lifetime Supporting
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8981
  • Karma: +36/-64
  • Location: Tolono Illinois
  • THAT'S MISTER KAPPA ASSYLUM TO YOU!
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2014, 02:31:31 PM »
Can one the mods please split this thread back to the original thread and the my turbo is better than yours (even if I don't own one) thread please?
2007 Aggressive GXP

Offline blackbirdracing

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 259
  • Karma: +2/-2
  • Location: Burbs of Chi-town
  • Kappa Newb
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2014, 03:45:24 PM »
Can one the mods please split this thread back to the original thread and the my turbo is better than yours (even if I don't own one) thread please?

I agree

Offline SKY888

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 2287
  • Karma: +3/-3
  • Location: near you
Re: Project Alamo Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2014, 04:36:02 PM »
One basically sees in the posted graphs what you are saying, as the gtx model has more high rpm hp and tq, though the spool difference is still the issue with either garrett, and the gtx can't counter that spool advantage. In the 2 earlier graphs the even with the smaller a/r housing garrett GT-R model is worse for spool, being about 500 rpm later than the EFR. The other graph shows what that means for hp and tq which is earlier tq and hp for the EFR. Once the garrett catches up at around 3800 rpm the hp and tq curves are similar (garrett has a little more from 3800 to 5250, then EFR has a little more to redline).

With the GTX-R with the larger a/r housing late spool gets even worse.

I'm not sure if you didn't get what I was trying to explain.

On the graphs where the efr is being compared to both gt30 and gtx30.
On both graphs, efr spools faster but has less hp/tq than gtx.

I am assuming that the gtx turbos were created by Garrett to counter the efr turbos spool advantages because now a smaller frame turbo (not smaller ar), like a gtx28 will/might be a good match with this efr turbo shown on the graph.

The gtx28 will be close to the hp/tq of the gt30, but will spool faster.

So it would be interesting to see a dyno graph comparison between this efr turbo vs a gtx2871





COMPOUND TURBOS (GT2860r & GT4294r) goal 800hp


CAR SPECS and PHOTOS:
https://www.facebook.com/SKY888CompoundTurbo

SPONSORS:
aeroforce.com, nitrofreeze.com, forgestar.com, splitsec.com, turbosmartonline.com, k1technologies.com, supertechperformance.com, specclutch.com, rceng.com, statusracing.com, tceperformanceproducts.com, burnsstainless.com, performanceautowerks.com, ddmworks.com, turbowerx.com, BTF

 

Powered by EzPortal