Topic: Suspension upgrade

[wspohn]

Bottom line is that a lower rear spring rate can be a valid set-up on certain cars including the solstice for some people, especially in a combo street/AX car, others prefer a higher rear spring rate for various reasons (track, feel, driving style, etc).

Amen.  Every car is different and every use for that car can call for different set ups, so a street driver is looking for something that represents a livable compromise.

I've had cars that didn't need springs that were any stiffer than stock, so I left them alone, while changing shocks and sway bars (88 Fiero) and I've had cars where I ended up with softer than stock at the rear and 900 lb. at the front (MG race car).

Hard to make rules; you need to test and try.  My BC Racing shocks showed up with 7 kg. all round (they shipped them to Canada direct from Taiwan rather than going through the US and had probably just grabbed them off the shelf with the message to stick in special spring rates).  I decided to try them first and was surprised that they worked out so well.  Going by long ago memory here, but I think the rates I have are about 390 lb both ends versus stock of 175 F and 225 R.  I like the result, but others might find it on the firm side.

[kwtoxman]

Yes
The T2 course is more similar to what you will experience on the road.
Our suspension and car is not like other cars.  When you attempt to use that logic it results in a bad riding vehicle.

My experience is not based on internet research, it is based partially on how GM engineers designed the car and how all of their setups are done for street, T2 AND Autocross, all of which are detailed in the their solstice setup book
Combined with
Having personally installed and tested them.   The real world experience completely backs up what the GM engineers put together.
DDM dave also posted at one time that they put stiffer springs on the rears of their KWs to increase the handling of the soltice they were using

Your limited experience does not compare to or account for all variables as mentioned earlier, especially when extending to other people. Different is different.

It is not surprising that GM went with higher rear spring rates in the rear than the front for the Z0K option considering how much understeer was engineered into the car and considering the added stiffer swaybars front and rear. Higher rear spring rates increase oversteer. But there is more than one way alter suspension to change handling and increase oversteer. Alternatively, adding a stiff Z0K swaybar at the rear with a stock front bar mitigates much of the need for higher rear spring rates. That is why the KW V3's work so well for many people with the Z0K rear and FE3 front.

It's kinda funny that you aren't even running the full Z0K setup, but you think the only supsension way is all-knowing GM engineers with their setup and relative f/r spring rates.

Our cars plow if the front and rear sway bars are the same stiffness.
I've done a bunch of autoXing and I run the FE3 swaybar up front and the ZOK swaybar rear and it's solved the understeer issue.

Such contradictions. You say the Z0K setup is the way in one post and then in another post you say that the car plows with the full Z0K setup. Can't have it both ways. Can fix that understeer though, and by multiple means.

It makes no sense to keep relative f/r spring rates similar between different set-ups if one is also changing other parts such as the relative f/r sway bar rates.

And even if the suspension setup is kept identical, other than increasing only the relative f/r spring rates (in line with the GM Z0K relative f/r difference), it still doesn't mean improved handling per se.

One thing I see all the time and is incorrect is people assume a [car] with X kg/mm rates front and rear will have the same exact balance (but different limits) as a car with 2X kg/mm rates front and rear. Increasing both ends by the same amount may alter the balance of the car. Like all cars, the front and rear are very different obviously so things change in different ways at both ends.http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1481213&postcount=3

So again, I say this.

Bottom line is that a lower rear spring rate can be a valid set-up on certain cars including the solstice for some people, especially in a combo street/AX car, others prefer a higher rear spring rate for various reasons (track, feel, driving style, etc).

Amen.  Every car is different and every use for that car can call for different set ups, so a street driver is looking for something that represents a livable compromise.

Thx wspohn. Yes, so many variables for a car..... set-up.... driving environment....personal preferences.

One thing that comes to mind is that all of the variations in sway bar set up between people with the solstice that impact handling for any selected spring rates. Are you still running both Z0K bars? Then there is the even stiffer adjustable sway bars from PAW. All of those options and settings should affect how a person chooses spring rates for the solstice. It seems many people here don't take that into much account.

My DA shocks with Z0K rear bar and FE3 front bar have allowed me to dial in a reasonable AX set-up without needing higher rear spring rates. And as I said, it actually oversteers a little too much at this time, which higher rear spring ratess would only aggravate. My new AX tires may fix that, if not then a little compression and/or rebound tweaking will get me back to where I want to be. Your spring rates make a lot of sense in combination with both Z0K bars, and frankly many people run similar F/R rates with the Z0K rear bar only to get more oversteer in AX (or more rear spring rate).
 

[roxer]

Are new bushings and clamps required for the Z0K bars when replacing the FE3 bars or can I use the FE3 stuff?  I know there are poly bushings and I should replace the old ones, just asking if the stock stuff works with the new bars.  Thickness the same F & R?

[kwtoxman]

Are new bushings and clamps required for the Z0K bars when replacing the FE3 bars or can I use the FE3 stuff?  I know there are poly bushings and I should replace the old ones, just asking if the stock stuff works with the new bars.  Thickness the same F & R?

I'd go new. But you can reuse the stock front bushings with the (GXP) Z0K bar as they are the same on the front, not on the rear. http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,2017.msg39013.html#msg39013

Lot's of debate on poly vs oem GM rubber bushings. It's my understanding most people went with the oem GM rubber. Snap on Bob has lots of HPDE experience and notes

I have run the OEM and poly sway bushings in the rear. No discernible difference. Save your money.

[roxer]

Get new bushing
I'd go new. But you can reuse the stock front bushings with the (GXP) Z0K bar as they are the same on the front, not on the rear. http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,2017.msg39013.html#msg39013

So the rear Z0K bar requires the new clamps and bushings?  Bushings are cheap, so no worries.  I'll go new for both front and rear while I have the car apart.  Was more curious about the rear clamps.

Thanks!   

UPDATE: I thought the new clamps/bushings were so the rear bar can be used on the NA?  GXP rear bushings and clamps should work, right?

[kwtoxman]

No. As said, rear bushings on the GXP Z0K are different from the GXP FE3.

I remember getting new rear clamps at the same time. I ordered from CED. http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Solstice-GXP-ZOK-Stabilizer-Package-ZOKBARS-P10898C683.aspx

[roxer]

No. As said, rear bushings on the GXP Z0K are different from the GXP FE3.

I remember getting new rear clamps at the same time. I ordered from CED. http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Solstice-GXP-ZOK-Stabilizer-Package-ZOKBARS-P10898C683.aspx

Found another post with the correct number - thanks much.

[elff]

Your limited experience does not compare to or account for all variables as mentioned earlier, especially when extending to other people. Different is different.

Actually I think it does and I also think that at a bare minimum, my "limited" experience with our cars suspension outweighs yours.   What you completely miss, and then go on to prove, is that my comments started with and were mostly geared towards what works better on the street.

But since you are saying I am limited in my experience, even though I have had multiple GM setups, Aftermarket Springs, Aftermarkets shocks and even Aftermarket Coilovers [Which were identical spring rates front and rear];
How many different setups have you had on your car?  How many different tire combinations, swaybars, bushings etc.
I can guarantee I have had more. 

AutoX is not the street or the end all, be all of car setup.  I was not talking specifically about AutoX and even stated that one combination works well in AutoX but not on the street.

As far as the Koni's goes, they worked extremely well for Autocross, but IMHO they sucked on the street.

I see you conveniently left that quote out.
As far as the swaybar quote you use out of context by not supplying the full background, I was describing a comparison I made while running the stock class in which aftermarket springs are not allowed
therefore, I played around with the different swaybars which was legal and posted my observations.  I do find it hilarious that you felt the need to go back and search for a post I made YEARS AGO. 
Obsess much over being correct?

What you also fail to understand was that I was referring to more than just over/understeer.  That is just one part.

In regards to the street and certain setups and specifically the roads you are on, you can bottom out quite easily in the rear if the rates are not stiff enough.  With the Eibachs, I hit my muffler twice and decided to remove them before their lack of height and spring rate had me rip off Norm's Rear Diffuser Fascia.  Thankfully the Magnaflow muffler mounts vertically or I would have needed to buy a new fascia.

I drove 2 Opel GTs while over seas.   The one that had KW's resulted with the owner smashing his custom rear fascia that required a significant amount of repair work due to the rears being too soft.  When I drove that car, I hated the way it handled on the street.  It would constantly bottom out in the rear on bumpy roads and just did not feel very planted.  Conversely it works fantastic for straight line runs on flat roads. 

Aside from that.  I will take the GM Engineers, the winners of the SCCA T2 Cars, the Stock Class AutoX cars and my own experience over internet fanboys who are not talking about our platform.   The people who did the research on our cars did an excellent job and you can spend a lot of money and still not improve it.

My car is setup for PA roads and the Tail of the Dragon.  It works fantastic and I will gladly take anyone with lesser spring rates around these roads and watch them have performance issues and potential body damage.

Roxer
The rear ZOK bar comes with new bushings and clamps because it larger than stock.
The front ZOK bar can resuse the existing bushings.

Both are available from our Forum Sponsor ShopGMAccessories.com

[Gentleman Jack]

Elff ban in

3

2

1

......

Hahahahaha

[elff]

 

[Sol Asylum]

Elff ban in

3

2

1

......

Hahahahaha

Will it be a short ban?

[kwtoxman]

LOL, one thing to count on I've seen over the years that is Elff is never wrong. Plus he's big on the ad hominem attacks.
Actually captain unobvious, no where in your posts did you say your comments were for the street.  

That was the point to explain to the OP about different setups and considerations. Then you say that AX set-ups aren't the end all for the street. No where did I say they were. My posts were actually much more accommodating to personal preferences, driving conditions and driving habits than your posts. Again, it is not all black and white, one way or the other. Then you miss out on the fact that I previously mentioned there are no bottom out issues on my car with the KW rear spring rates. On Canadian roads with major pothole issues. The technical spring rate and suspension discussion is conveniently and completely ignored. To support your position, you keep mentioning T2 cars that have nowhere near Z0K suspension (like a different planet), and also stock class AX cars which in another sentence you say AX is not the be all for the street. Full of contradictions as well. It's like only your limited experience (yes limited) counts. I'm not surprised though. By all means continue to ignore the big picture and cherry pick evidence to suit your stance.

News flash. 1. It's obvious you like the set-up of your car. 2. You are not the only one. 3. There are different ways to set up a car. 4. The different ways to set up the suspension can each be effective.

I won't waste my breath any more but I'm happy to leave the all of info with forum members to decide for themselves.

[roxer]

Wow, did I cause all of that?  Seriously, thanks for the passionate back and forth - there really is a lot of knowledge in those posts.  I haven't seen arguments this good since my 84 Toyota Celica GT Fastback.

Truth is, I see both sides. My old asphalt circle track days (Nova II) was different than the suspension for dirt track.  I do believe GM created the Z0K package to be middle of the road - a base for all three driving venues.  That's what car companies do.  They leave it up to the owner to do the rest.  Remember, they sold a Z0K Solstice for a reason.  It allowed someone to have the basic setup and the owner had to take it from there.

Personally, I like the BC option, but like I said - what happens when a shock fails?  Staying with the GM package lets me use what will be an easy replacement.  This car is a daily driver with stints in the mountains of NC and Tenn.  I think the Z0K will more than suffice for this purpose, provided I can tolerate the lowering of the car.

I'm still considering two spring seats...

[Sol Asylum]

I 100% disagree with this.  I had both Koni's and Eibach springs and hated them.
The problem with the Eibachs is two fold.
1. They don't understand our vehicles.  They actually think the solstice has a different suspension than the sky.
2. Their spring rates are backwards.  All GM Spring combos have the rear's being stiffer than the fronts.

Eiback does not realize how good the weight balance of our cars is and thinks the fronts need to be stiffer to support the weight of the engine.   They are wrong.

Here is a good comparison of a lot of options out there for the Kappa's that details the above statement.  Take a look at how every GM combination whether NA or Turbo has the rear's stiffer than the front. 

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,8724.0.html

As far as the Koni's goes, they worked extremely well for Autocross, but IMHO they sucked on the street.  They don't respond quick enough.  The 5 different settings just change how they react.  You either bottom out, or you skip across the surface. Neither give you optimum tire contact.

For the same reasons as the Eibachs, I am not a fan on Unmodified KW's.  The rears have a lower spring rate than the fronts.  You need to add stiffer springs to the rears of the KW's which is even more cost.

I would suggest going with the ZOK springs and FE3 shocks. The Solstice won the T2 class repeatedly with that combination and you have to ask yourself, are you a better driver than the guy who raced the T2 winning car?

I've actually had and driven 5 different suspension setups on my Sky and have a lot of experience with how each shock/spring combination behaves on our cars on kind of crappy PA roads. 

My favorite to date was the GMPP setup for the Sky. 
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Off-Road-Shock-Absorber-Package-17800029-P12618C683.aspx
The shocks respond slightly better than the FE3s and the spring rate of the springs is the same as the ZOK's. The problem is you can't buy the shocks alone. So if one fails you have to re-buy the whole kit.   As such, the next best option for a street vehicle is adding the ZOK springs to your existing FE3 shocks and it's also a pretty cheap option.

Here is a direct link to the Front Springs you want
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/FE3-LNF-ZOK-Front-Spring-25849163-P10874C683.aspx

Here is a direct link to the Rear Springs you want
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/FE3-LNF-ZOK-Rear-Spring-25855626-P10875C683.aspx

That is from our Forum Sponsor Shop GM Accessories.com
[The website redirects to their old name still]

Actually he did say on the street, but maybe someone didn't see those cherries.

I'm not sure I would say 5 suspension setups is limited experience, how many different manufactures setups has KWtoxman had on his kappa that he is basing his experience on?

The point of this thread is to get information based on experience not start some immature JVB/GMT style fight.  How exactly would that help a new person out?  Why does this sort of thread end up in some sort of personal attack?

[kwtoxman]

Actually he did say on the street, but maybe someone didn't see those cherries.

I'm not sure I would say 5 suspension setups is limited experience, how many different manufactures setups has KWtoxman had on his kappa that he is basing his experience on?

The point of this thread is to get information based on experience not start some immature JVB/GMT style fight.  How exactly would that help a new person out?  Why does this sort of thread end up in some sort of personal attack?

I guess this is hard to understand. At no point in that post did Elff say his recommended setup was for the street. What he did was mention how one setup sucked on the street, and how other's he tried worked on crappy street roads. Then he specifically mentioned Z0K as recommended (no mention of street) and justified it with T2 cars that ride on the track, which don't even use the Z0K coilovers. It was all over the place, frankly. And as such I didn't read it as "X setup I recommend for the street". 

I guess you also like to focus on personal experience as the only metric. Five setups compared to the hundreds with the solstice on various setups. Pretty limited to me. And the thousands with setup experience on other platforms? Adding in the different driving conditions and driving habits and I find it a narrow view to think one set up is the way to go.

[elff]

Actually captain unobvious, no where in your posts did you say your comments were for the street.

Really? then what do these 2 comments in the same reply imply?

As far as the Koni's goes, they worked extremely well for Autocross, but IMHO they sucked on the street.  They don't respond quick enough.  The 5 different settings just change how they react.  You either bottom out, or you skip across the surface. Neither give you optimum tire contact.

I've actually had and driven 5 different suspension setups on my Sky and have a lot of experience with how each shock/spring combination behaves on our cars on kind of crappy PA roads.

The person who started the attacks was not me.  You DIRECTLY quoted me, and questioned my "Limited Experience".  You then went on to take a quote of mine out of context to try and justify your viewpoint and ego.

So who has the issue?
Don't pick a fight if you don't want one. 

Here is my point.

I completely understand you can build different setups, but most people waste a ton of money trying to out engineer, the engineers that already did a bunch of research and had highly successful results in a variety of situations.  These same people think that these mods will make them a better driver, when in fact they are not capable of out driving the hardware GM developed in their ZOK setup. 

I have run a setup in which the rear setup had the same spring rates as the fronts.  That is completely different than one having lower rear spring rates.  It actually worked really well.  The only problem I had with that was it was too low.  After hitting the bottom of my intercooler on a back road [Which I posted] I decided to go back to something with more ground clearance.  It had nothing to do with the spring rates or performance.  A fellow forum owner is running my B&G's and got a great deal on them.  He just had to buy some raffle tickets at the mod meet.
Let me know when you donate a full coilover set in a raffle to support our forum. 

Roxer
The BC's are a great setup.  One of the really cool things about them, is you can custom order them with Swift springs which are one of the best springs made.  As such, you have the option of choosing whatever spring rate you want, front or rear with their shocks.   There are numerous Kappa owners who have them, and I don't think I have ever seen a bad comment on them.  They have been around a long time and it looks like they will continue to support our kappa's.
If you truly want them, I think they are still a safe bet. To hopefully put you at ease,  If a shock fails, that won't affect the mounting hardware, so you should be ok if you run into a warranty issue.

Sorry for the back and forth outside your question.

[kwtoxman]

LOL, far before pointing out your limited experience, which you call the first "attack" you said this

When you attempt to use that logic it results in a bad riding vehicle.

My experience is not based on internet research

Talk about attacking. I guess you missed that.

What's even funnier is that I didn't discount your suspension recommendation. I pointed out broader inputs and considerations and noted that multiple set-ups with different aspects can work based on real world experience and feedback. But you discounted that big time. Not much to wonder about attacking.



And by the general metrics the world uses to advance knowledge and technology, yes your personal experience is limited. That should not be insulting. There is far more to the breadth of experience and than personal use. The world over uses other people's knowledge and experience gained over time and provided to advance society and technology. God, if the world just relied on personal experience, than we'd still be in the stone ages. There'd be no need for books or libraries. Feel free to discount non-personal experience and information, but it shouldn't be insulting to say that personal experience is limited.

[Sol Asylum]

I guess this is hard to understand. At no point did Elff say his recommended setup was for the street. All he did was mention how one setup sucked on the street. and how other's he tried worked on crappy street roads.

I guess you also like to focus on personal experience as the only metric. Five setups compared to the hundreds with the solstice on various setups. Pretty limited to me. And the thousands with setup experience on other platforms? Adding in the different driving conditions and driving habits and I find it a narrow view to think one set up is the way to go.

And you can't even answer one easy question, how many set ups have you tried on your Kappa?  My guess not counting what came on the car is one.  And since we all know you can't post something that's not true on the internet, web surfing has to be far more accurate than personal experience.

[kwtoxman]

More than one setup, more than one kappa, and enough to AX competitively and win. Besides it doesn't matter how many I've tried as I said there is more to life than personal experience. What a nonsensical way to discredit someone. "Who care's if my set-up works well with no bottom out issues that low spring rates would display, it is meaningless and useless as he hasn't tried enough setups....". Again, there are multiple ways to get a good set-up and multiple considerations.

As for trusting the internet, I guess some people aren't very good at weeding out the crap. But that doesn't mean everyone is bad at that.

[elff]

Yea, I was the one that started it.
Cool thing is, the forum has time stamps.

My personal experience is greater than your personal experience in regards to the Kappa suspension.  You just can't accept that and it causes you to lash out and use non Kappa platforms to justify your viewpoint.

I think that the guys who wrote this book

completely trump the internet Fanboyz in the knowledge of the kappa platform.

once again
People waste a ton of money trying to out engineer, the GM engineers and also the people that helped put this book together.  These same people think that these mods will make them a better driver, when in fact they are not capable of out driving the hardware GM developed in their ZOK setup. 

[kwtoxman]

Yes, time stamps which confirm what I said.

I don't care if you have more personal experience than me. And that should be realllllly obvious by now. The weight of evidence is about a whole heck of a lot more than a single person's personal experience (whether mine or yours).

Plus you can't even accept my experience demonstrating that that my different setup is working and working well. Totally discounting it.

Pull out the book eh. lol. Well, you're not the only person with that book.

That book presents zero suspension discussion and theory basically beyond use Z0K, here are part numbers (no specs), bolt on, do alignment, see pictures. What an awesome suspension resource guide. Totally amazing. 

The book doesn't discuss suspension design, philosophy, spring rates, NF calculations, sway bar/spring rate selection and effects, effects of compression and rebound damping on handling (since Z0K doesn't have that), how to set up suspension for optimal handling, common handling issues and fixes, AX vs track setups, etc. Feel free though to use that as your suspension bible.

[TomatoSoup]

Hmmm, butter... 

[elff]

Yes, time stamps which confirm what I said.

I don't care if you have more personal experience than me. And that should be realllllly obvious by now. That is not the metric by which I judge the weight of evidence. You can't even accept the fact that my setup is working and working well .
Pull out the book eh. lol. Well, you're not the only person with that book.

That book presents zero suspension discussion and theory basically beyond, use Z0K, here are part numbers (no specs), bolt on, do alignment, see pictures. What an awesome suspension resource guide. Totally amazing. 

The book doesn't discuss suspension design, philosophy, spring rates, NF calculations, sway bar/spring rate selection and effects, effects of compression and rebound damping on handling (since Z0K doesn't have that), how to set up suspension for optimal handling, common handling issues and fixes, AX vs track setups, etc. Feel free though to use that as your suspension bible.

And the time stamps show you started arguing with Wspohn first and then me even though I did not respond  to anything you stated
Yea your right, the guys who put the solstice book together must know nothing about that. They just helped build the car, do the alignment etc....  I am sure you are much more knowledgable than they are and have as good or better results than them to prove you know more
 
I wonder why Phoenix Performance is even in business since they know so little about GM vehicles.

[kwtoxman]

And the time stamps show you started arguing with Wspohn first and then me even though I did not respond  to anything you stated
Yea your right, the guys who put the solstice book together must know nothing about that. They just helped build the car, do the alignment etc....  I am sure you are much more knowledgable than they are and have as good or better results than them to prove you know more
 
I wonder why Phoenix Performance is even in business since they know so little about GM vehicles.

There was no argument with WSPohn and myself as there was no heated or angry tone.

My first post to you shows a lot of various information that is available and I thought worth discussing. There was no heated or angry tone. Maybe you didn't like the few corrections that were made or didn't agree with them. You can disagree with my bottom line statement if you want too. But you don't do just that. Again and again your posts show that you find a difference of opinion to be a personal attack on you and arguing, and you jump right in with actual attacks and arguing. This is nothing new.

Going for another straw with Phoenix performance. It doesn't make sense.

[Sol Asylum]

More than one setup, more than one kappa, and enough to AX competitively and win. Besides it doesn't matter how many I've tried as I said there is more to life than personal experience. What a nonsensical way to discredit someone. "Who care's if my set-up works well with no bottom out issues that low spring rates would display, it is meaningless and useless as he hasn't tried enough setups....". Again, there are multiple ways to get a good set-up and multiple considerations.

As for trusting the internet, I guess some people aren't very good at weeding out the crap. But that doesn't mean everyone is bad at that.

So you still couldn't answer the question.  You tried to make it look like you did while trying to discredit me by insinuating I said a bunch of crap that I didn't say.  See how I weeded that out?

Personal experience with the devices in question on the the platform in question is, in my opinion, more valuable than say some generic internet source about some other product that may or may not be made by the same manufacturer and fitted to a completely different platform.

So believe it or not KW your personal experience is more valuable to me than most of the general forum links you post that is so long as I don't end up deciding your experience is, to use your words, "the crap" I weed out.

Need some salt TS?