Topic: Just wondering if there's a replacement for the 5-speed Aisin AR5?

[ChopTop]

Just wondering if there is a replacement for the notchy 5-speed Aisin AR5 manual replacement?  And no, just replace the engine and trans answers.

I think it's a given that had there had been a Kappa II GM would probably had either replaced the AR5 with something else or reengineered the shifter to be smoother (or possible added a six gear).

[Sol Asylum]

You mean besides the 6 speed conversion DDM does?

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,9534.0.html

[TomatoSoup]

Yeah, man, where've you been?

[wspohn]

I have a question - how many people with six speed transmissions find that crusiing in 5th is just too many rpm and want to shift to 6th?  Possibly none?  Sorry, never wanted a 6th speed OD Ratio when I have a 5th speed OD ratio.

[Sol Asylum]

That's a good question, the few 6 speeds I have driven I was like what's the point of 6th it drops the revs like 200 maybe 300.

[POS VETT]

My wife and I have, multiple times, tried to shift from 5th into Reverse; there isn't a physical barrier for doing that. Our other cars all have a 6-speed transmission.

[Sly Bob]

My wife and I have, multiple times, tried to shift from 5th into Reverse

Did that very thing myself one time when test driving a manual years ago.

[ChopTop]

You mean besides the 6 speed conversion DDM does?

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,9534.0.html

Regardless if it's a 2.4 or 2.0?

I'm just curious, I doubt I could afford it financially.

[LatinVenom]

I thought some members have gotten good results with changing the fluid to something like Royal Purple 75W90, or Mobil 1.
Has anyone tried to add STP to the transmission and got a much better shifting out of it?.

[GXP_Matt]

Just wondering if there is a replacement for the notchy 5-speed Aisin AR5 manual replacement?  And no, just replace the engine and trans answers.

I think it's a given that had there had been a Kappa II GM would probably had either replaced the AR5 with something else or reengineered the shifter to be smoother (or possible added a six gear).

It's an interesting question.  I agree that the AR5 is a big weak point in the Kappa.  No one really puts 5 speeds in cars any more so you would expect it to be a 6-speed.  Some googling reveals that you can get a Tremec TR3160 in the Cadillac ATS, my guess is that would be what GM would have put in a Kappa 2, especially because the ATS 2.0 has a direct descendant of the LNF engine. The TR6060 which goes in the C6Z06 and ZR1 is a big heavy transmission made for a lot of torque, it doesn't make sense to put that behind a 2.0l, even turbocharged. Does anyone know if the trans bolt pattern changed from the LNF to the ATS engine?  I don't think so but I'm not sure.  I do think that getting the shifter to line up would be difficult but maybe you could use some parts from a T56 that goes in a GTO like DDMWorks does and hope that Tremec uses standard parts for the shift linkage for the T56 and the TR3160.

[LiquidPT]

I have a question - how many people with six speed transmissions find that crusiing in 5th is just too many rpm and want to shift to 6th?  Possibly none?  Sorry, never wanted a 6th speed OD Ratio when I have a 5th speed OD ratio.

The 6 speed doesn't just add another gear above the current gear ratios. I actually *think* 6th is somewhat similar to our 5th (OK, maybe a little higher). It moves the gear ratios in between though.

[Gentleman Jack]

The 6 speed doesn't just add another gear above the current gear ratios. I actually *think* 6th is somewhat similar to our 5th (OK, maybe a little higher). It moves the gear ratios in between though.

Yes to this. It does a wonderous job of keeping right in the power band.

[Dave@DDMworks]

It's an interesting question.  I agree that the AR5 is a big weak point in the Kappa.  No one really puts 5 speeds in cars any more so you would expect it to be a 6-speed.  Some googling reveals that you can get a Tremec TR3160 in the Cadillac ATS, my guess is that would be what GM would have put in a Kappa 2, especially because the ATS 2.0 has a direct descendant of the LNF engine. The TR6060 which goes in the C6Z06 and ZR1 is a big heavy transmission made for a lot of torque, it doesn't make sense to put that behind a 2.0l, even turbocharged. Does anyone know if the trans bolt pattern changed from the LNF to the ATS engine?  I don't think so but I'm not sure.  I do think that getting the shifter to line up would be difficult but maybe you could use some parts from a T56 that goes in a GTO like DDMWorks does and hope that Tremec uses standard parts for the shift linkage for the T56 and the TR3160.

The bolt pattern has changed going to the 3160 vs. the AR-5, also the newer engines moved the turbo to what we call the drivers side of the engine and the starter is now on what would have been the passenger side of the engine before. The bellhousing can not be swapped between the 2 transmissions either since the bellhousing on the 3160 holds the front of the shafts that the gears are on. Lining up the shifter with a 3160/6060 is actually the easy part since the linkage can be changed pretty easily and made to whatever length is needed, this is what we do with our V8 swaps. The other option that we have parts being made for now is actually a stronger AR-5, we have found what the issue is on the inside and technically have a solution for it, more on that later.

[wspohn]

AR5:

1   2   3   4   5   R
3.75   2.26   1.51   1.00   0.73   3.67

Typical T56: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission)

2.66:1  1.78:1  1.30:1   1.00:1  0.74:1  0.50:1   2.90:1

So what you get is a higher (i.e. slower off the line) first, second and third, and two overdrive ratios, one the same as you had, plus one ridiculously high.  I'm not sure that is progress (one caveat - I haven't taken time to chart the splits to see what the rpm at shift point drops to in the next gear - other than a slower start, the 2,3,4 splits may be a nicer closer set.  I'll check it out if I get time)..

[Dave@DDMworks]

Here is a comparison of the stock AR5 to the T56 -



Also, here is a comparison of the stock AR5 to a T56 with the 3.9 rear end, which works better with it.



Hope that helps.

Honestly, we are really liking the newer transmissions over the T56 and have stopped using the T56 in any of our V8 builds along time ago now since the 6060 is much nicer.

Hope that helps,
Dave

[LatinVenom]

Will the upgrades to the AR-5 get rid of the synchronous problems of the transmission.
I will never go to a V8 conversion, but would love to have a more smoother shifting transmission.
I have asked this before. Would STP oil treatment added to the AR-5 in combination with something like 75W90 Royal purple, help with the synchronous problems?.

[kwtoxman]

I remember it called the syncromesh per se in the transmission in regards all the shifting comments.

FWIW, I have another high hp 2.0 turbo DI VVT car and it is a six speed. Frankly, the power spread of the gxp is so wide that in spirited driving I prefer the 5 speed in it over the 6 speed in the other car. Less shifting equals a faster car. I find I have to do a lot of 'rowing' in the 6 speed car.

And I've never had much of an issue going from the 5 speed car to the 6 speed car. Only a couple of times have I ever sought a phantom 6th on the gxp (and distracted when doing that) and through the very shift pattern gates I realized I was in the wrong (hitting a wall in the shifter motion, never going into reverse or anything like that).

[ChopTop]

While I enjoy shifting, I don't enjoy having to focus so much time on shifting smoothly.  And it does shift smoothly when I'm consciously make sure the clutch is fully depressed and the gear fully engaged every time I shift.  But that's the problem, having to focus so much time on shifting smoothly when it should be (feel) second nature. 

The standard forums answer is always; It's a truck transmission what do you expect.  I get that, but it doesn't answer why the AR5 doesn't shift mechanically smoother.  Nor does it answer if there's a way to help the AR5 to shift smoother, (short of installing a V8 with a 6060 transmission). 

[TomatoSoup]

So... continuing the premise... what about the manual transmission in the Caddy ATS?  I know that the 2.0 turbo on that car is an development of our LNF, and is North-South mounted.  The tranny is a 6-speed and has had good reviews for slickness of operation. Apparently (per wikipedia) it's the Tremec M3L TR3160.

Couldn't that be "a contenda"?

[Dave@DDMworks]

So... continuing the premise... what about the manual transmission in the Caddy ATS?  I know that the 2.0 turbo on that car is an development of our LNF, and is North-South mounted.  The tranny is a 6-speed and has had good reviews for slickness of operation. Apparently (per wikipedia) it's the Tremec M3L TR3160.

Couldn't that be "a contenda"?

Are we not reading anymore?

from earlier - "The bolt pattern has changed going to the 3160 vs. the AR-5, also the newer engines moved the turbo to what we call the drivers side of the engine and the starter is now on what would have been the passenger side of the engine before. The bellhousing can not be swapped between the 2 transmissions either since the bellhousing on the 3160 holds the front of the shafts that the gears are on. Lining up the shifter with a 3160/6060 is actually the easy part since the linkage can be changed pretty easily and made to whatever length is needed, this is what we do with our V8 swaps."

[LatinVenom]

The bolt pattern has changed going to the 3160 vs. the AR-5, also the newer engines moved the turbo to what we call the drivers side of the engine and the starter is now on what would have been the passenger side of the engine before. The bellhousing can not be swapped between the 2 transmissions either since the bellhousing on the 3160 holds the front of the shafts that the gears are on. Lining up the shifter with a 3160/6060 is actually the easy part since the linkage can be changed pretty easily and made to whatever length is needed, this is what we do with our V8 swaps. The other option that we have parts being made for now is actually a stronger AR-5, we have found what the issue is on the inside and technically have a solution for it, more on that later.

TS:
I thought Dave answered it some what with this post.

[TomatoSoup]

Well, I read that post.  But I totally ignored the 3160 number buried in there. So yah boo!

 

[Critterman]

It isn't an electrical problem so he doesn't understand

[Rockchops]

I remember it called the syncromesh per se in the transmission in regards all the shifting comments.

FWIW, I have another high hp 2.0 turbo DI VVT car and it is a six speed. Frankly, the power spread of the gxp is so wide that in spirited driving I prefer the 5 speed in it over the 6 speed in the other car. Less shifting equals a faster car. I find I have to do a lot of 'rowing' in the 6 speed car.

And I've never had much of an issue going from the 5 speed car to the 6 speed car. Only a couple of times have I ever sought a phantom 6th on the gxp (and distracted when doing that) and through the very shift pattern gates I realized I was in the wrong (hitting a wall in the shifter motion, never going into reverse or anything like that).

This is also what I've found. I had a mk6 gti for a couple years with a 6 speed and was constantly rowing to the point where it drove me crazy. the aisin 5 speed is clunky but it's a nicely ratio'd box for the engine and rear diff ratio. The power band is wide enough in the lnf that you're not constantly searching for it.

As far as the OP's question about fluids -- why not try it out? What do you have to lose except a few bucks and few minutes? In the very least you'll have fresh fluid in there.


Sent from an abacus

[cbr6]

I have always felt my GXP could use a taller first gear, other then that can't complain about transmission. I let the gear oil warm up and then it shifts well.