Author Topic: No Start P0615 Need advice (Read 8669 times)

KappaScar · « **on:** May 09, 2015, 08:20:40 PM »

Ok, I need some help. Let me start at the beginning. I was driving my 07 GXP (Trifecta budget tuned) when I got a CEL then the DIC showed Check ESC, Traction Control Off. I was almost to work so I shut the car off at work, thinking I would look into it after work. Well after about an hour my horn started going off (alarm). I thought I had hit the panic button in my pocket so I just hit it again and it stopped. Then 30 minutes later, someone said your radio is on in your car. I said that's not possible, I have my keys in my pocket. I went out and sure enough the radio was blaring. When I opened the door, the chime was going off as if my keys were in the ignition. I put my keys in then turned them off and everything looked normal. I tried to start the car and nothing. The guages would swing but then drop out when I turned the key and I would get all of the same errors as before but then I started getting air bag and security.

I thought maybe the battery was run down from the radio so I tried to jump it. I had no luck for about the first 15 minutes of trying then all of a sudden it started. I decided to drive it home while I could. The trip home was very interesting. The dash looked like a Christmas tree with lights coming on and off. The gauges would swing wildly and the air would come on and off all by itself.

Once I got it home and turned it off it wouldn't start again. I was getting tons of codes U102 was one of them. I did a lot of research and went to the BCM connections first. They all looked good, front and back. I took the battery off and had it load tested, they said it was good but I didn't trust it so I bought a new Napa Gold battery, I had them test it before I left the store as well. Then I checked the ECM connectors and found corrosion on the left connector and one of the pins had completely oxidize away.

I thought I had found the problem so I bought an ECM from Mallet. After installing the ECM the check ESC and traction control warnings went away as did some of the random relay actions. After following the key learn process, I tried to start it and it wouldn't start and I got a CEL again and an air bag light.

Next I checked the ground wire on the drivers side of the engine. It had corrosion, so I cleaned it and cleared the CEL's and tried again. Still no start but now no other CEL's. I was down to two CEL's, U101 which I found out was because the ECM I bought was originally for an Auto car and it is looking for the TCM and the P0615.

At this point I got the schematic and my powerprobe out. What I found is that the PCM is not sending a ground signal to Relay 34, the Crank relay. I was able to start the car by pulling the crank relay and energizing the starter relay.

Jut to ensure it was the ground I was loosing, I put a meter on the hot side of the crank relay coil and pushed in on the clutch and it got power. So I am certain the ECM is not sending the ground. I also swapped the relay out. See the drawing here http://www.mendingthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wiring-diagram-Start-Run1.jpg. I highlighted the ground signal wire as yellow.

What could cause the signal not to get from the ECM to the relay or maybe prevent the ECM from sending the ground?

Sol Asylum · « **Reply #1 on:** May 09, 2015, 08:42:21 PM »

Sound like you might have a bad ground some place.

How old is the battery?

2kwk4u · « **Reply #2 on:** May 09, 2015, 09:30:47 PM »

Second on the battery. These cars are known to seem possessed when the battery reaches the end of it's life. If you haven't replaced the battery in the last few years (or if it's the original, like mine still is in my '08 *knocks on wood*), consider a new one before you go any further pulling your hair out. Others have fallen into those rabbit holes only to get a new battery as a "last resort" and have that solve all their problems.

Gentleman Jack · « **Reply #3 on:** May 09, 2015, 09:50:35 PM »

I third the battery.

KappaScar · « **Reply #4 on:** May 09, 2015, 11:01:04 PM »

I forgot to mention the battery was my first thought too so I had it load tested they said it was good but I didn't trust it so I bought a brand new napa gold. Also had it load tested.

Thanks for the responses.

KappaScar · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2015, 11:03:20 PM »

Also I checked resistance between the ecm and frame ground, it was less than 1ohm

Sly Bob · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2015, 05:00:09 AM »

I'm making the obvious assumption that the missing pin at the ECM didn't make any difference?

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,2108.msg182200.html#msg182200

2kwk4u · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2015, 06:50:07 AM »

Have you already swapped the BCM? You say you checked all of the connectors, but most of the problems you describe would indicate a faulty BCM in many cars (battery came to mind first for Kappas, though).

That being said, it sucks to just throw parts at a problem in hopes that one of them will be the magic bullet.

Another question... how are the battery cables themselves? Have you put a meter on them? Are they nice and pliable or stiff and brittle?

KappaScar · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2015, 06:57:07 AM »

Quote from: Sly Bob on May 10, 2015, 05:00:09 AM

I'm making the obvious assumption that the missing pin at the ECM didn't make any difference?

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,2108.msg182200.html#msg182200

Yes, it did. I am not running on that ECM now. I did try to put it back in and I still got all of the codes again but I also had the no start condition.

2kwk4u · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2015, 06:59:01 AM »

Final thought: make sure all the fuses and relays are seated in both the power distribution block and on the BCM. Years ago, some were reporting problems related to that... but those issues only seemed to manifest themselves when the cars were new - and should have reared their heads long ago if it was the problem on your car.

KappaScar · « **Reply #10 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:08:35 AM »

Quote from: 2kwk4u on May 10, 2015, 06:50:07 AM

Have you already swapped the BCM? You say you checked all of the connectors, but most of the problems you describe would indicate a faulty BCM in many cars (battery came to mind first for Kappas, though).

That being said, it sucks to just throw parts at a problem in hopes that one of them will be the magic bullet.

Another question... how are the battery cables themselves? Have you put a meter on them? Are they nice and pliable or stiff and brittle?

Good suggestion but I believe I have eliminated that as a possibility because the ground that I am not getting, doesn't go through the BCM. The B+ does but I am getting it. The ground comes straight from the ECM. I guess it's possible that the ECM is looking for another signal from something else before it gives the ground and that could be coming from the BCM. However the 615 code is for a failed start circuit so the ECM is trying to start. That may be a last resort. Like you say, I hate just throwing parts at it.
Now as for the battery cables, the connections are good and clean but I will check to see if they seem stiff, good call out.

Thanks again to everyone for the ideas. Let's keep them coming. There is no such thing as a bad idea, the worse it does is make me rethink something that I already thought I had put behind me. If I had made all the right calls, the car would be starting

KappaScar · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:12:48 AM »

Quote from: 2kwk4u on May 10, 2015, 06:59:01 AM

Final thought: make sure all the fuses and relays are seated in both the power distribution block and on the BCM. Years ago, some were reporting problems related to that... but those issues only seemed to manifest themselves when the cars were new - and should have reared their heads long ago if it was the problem on your car.

It's funny you mention that, While I had the BCM out, I did notice that many of the fuses and relays were not fully seated. I reseated them and actually checked voltage across every fuse just to insure they were good.

KappaScar · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:26:13 AM »

Quote from: Sol Asylum on May 09, 2015, 08:42:21 PM

Sound like you might have a bad ground some place.

How old is the battery?

I agree on the ground issue. Can someone verify for me where all of the ground points are?

KappaScar · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:42:12 AM »

An interesting statistic, As of this minute, this post has only had 47 views but has 12 responses. I cross posted this exact post on the the other forum and it has 143 views and no responses.

TomatoSoup · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:15:39 AM »

I do recall that some others have had issues with the ECM wiring. There's a loom connector elsewhere that has gone bad before.

Given the diagnostics you've done so far (missing switched-ground to the relay) I would disconnect and open up the C2 ECM connector & check the other end of your ground signal (pin 12, YE). If that is OK, then it's the wiring between.

Meanwhile I'll look for that failed connector post.

KappaScar · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:21:49 AM »

Quote from: TomatoSoup on May 10, 2015, 10:15:39 AM

I do recall that some others have had issues with the ECM wiring. There's a loom connector elsewhere that has gone bad before.

Given the diagnostics you've done so far (missing switched-ground to the relay) I would disconnect and open up the C2 ECM connector & check the other end of your ground signal (pin 12, YE). If that is OK, then it's the wiring between.

Meanwhile I'll look for that failed connector post.

Thanks, I think this is a wise next step. I will do that and report back.

TomatoSoup · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:44:23 AM »

Well I looked for the post but couldn't find it. My understanding was that it was discussing the main loom connector (marked #10 in the pic below). I seem to recall they found issues with some of the pins and ended up splicing around the connector to fix those pins. Maybe worth checking, anyway.

KappaScar · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2015, 11:33:15 AM »

Quote from: TomatoSoup on May 10, 2015, 10:44:23 AM

Well I looked for the post but couldn't find it. My understanding was that it was discussing the main loom connector (marked #10 in the pic below). I seem to recall they found issues with some of the pins and ended up splicing around the connector to fix those pins. Maybe worth checking, anyway.

(Image removed from quote.)

After reading your earlier suggestion, I went out and traced the loom. I found a connector under the fuse block and behind the battery. It was attached to the metal bracket that holds the fuse block up. I opened the connector and didn't see any corrosion but when I tested for continuity from the relay socket to the pins, I found that I had intermittent continuity between one of the pins on the male plug, coming from the fuse block, and the relay socket. I could wiggle the cable and it would come and go.

After lunch I will get into that and see what I can find but I believe we have found the culprit. Thanks much Tomato! If this solves it, I will take some photos and post in this thread.

LatinVenom · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:34:50 PM »

One last question, is the new ECM a 2007.
Since you end up with an automatic maybe Mallett also gave you a newer ECM, maybe 2008 or 2009.

KappaScar · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:21:20 PM »

Quote from: LatinVenom on May 10, 2015, 02:34:50 PM

One last question, is the new ECM a 2007.
Since you end up with an automatic maybe Mallett also gave you a newer ECM, maybe 2008 or 2009.

Actually, it came out of an 07 Sky

KappaScar · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:25:04 PM »

Alright here is where I am right now. I traced the wire from the C2 connector to the loom connector. I am getting good continuity through that connector. I have 1K of resistance at the relay base. The only thing left is the termination under the fuse block itself.

I looked and it appears that you can take the fuse block apart but I need a little more information before I tackle that.

KappaScar · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2015, 12:23:05 AM »

Sunday night update: 5/17/15
I finally chased down all of the bad connections and although I now have a clean signal to the ECM from the relay base, I am not getting the ground from the ECM. I do believe now that this is because the ECM I bought is for an automatic. I need to take it to the dealer to get a fresh re-flash. That should solve the no start condition now.

However, since I am not going to be home to start it and take it to the dealer, I needed to come up with a way so that my wife could start the car to drive it to the dealership.

Here is what I did to get around the issue and do a mod that I wanted at the same time.

See the write up and the video here http://www.mendingthings.com/?p=717on my blog

KappaScar · « **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2015, 11:34:59 PM »

I finally have everything lined out. So here is what the final saga was.

After clearing up all bad connections from the ECM to the ground side of relay 34's coil. The ECM still would not give a ground to the relay. At this point I was pretty sure it was because it didn't see a TCM, since the ECM came out of an automatic car.

Also I couldn't restore my Trifecta tune because it was locked to the ECM. I was going to pay for another trifecta tune and have it set for a manual. I placed the order thru DDM. Ivy was great and reached out to Trifecta first and explained my situation. They recommended I take it to the dealer for a reflash. She could have easily just processed the order but she wanted to make sure I was getting the best solution.

Now is when I reached out to my local GM dealer. I told them what I had and that I needed a reflash. My wife took it last Tuesday because I was flying out of town for work.

They called her and said it was ready and it would start now with the key. When she went and picked it up the car wouldn't start. They pulled it back in and ended up saying the pins on the female connector were all bad. They estimated 800-1000 $ to repair them. They suggested I buy a plug from a junk car and swap it.

When I got back I found that it still had the cel. I cleared the cel and flashed the Trifecta tune... And Walla! All was good!

Thanks to everyone for their help.

POS VETT · « **Reply #23 on:** May 24, 2015, 08:41:40 AM »

That's determination. I'm glad the problem is solved. Any guess why electrical connectors were corroded?

Sly Bob · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2015, 08:53:14 AM »

Yeah that was quite the challenge. Glad you got to the bottom of it!

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Author Topic: No Start P0615 Need advice (Read 8669 times)