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Author Topic: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?  (Read 14946 times)

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Offline wspohn

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Re: 14.5" Kit From ZZP
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2015, 09:00:29 PM »

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the physics behind bigger brakes can't be debated......they're going to stop the car faster in higher speed and continuous braking situations.

You guys are completely forgetting what the normal limiting factor for brakes is.  It isn't brake size, and with a properly designed system it isn't the number of pistons in the calipers.

It IS the tire compound and when it breaks contact with the ground and starts to slide that limits braking.  Once you have fade free brakes, you can refine them a bit (multiple pistons can apply the pads more evenly and bigger pad area can spread the force over more surface and aid cooling) but after that the only way to stop faster is to buy some stickier tires!  Doesn't matter if you had 12 pistons with ginormous pads, if you don't have the grab at the tire/ground interface, your brakes aren't going to work any better.
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Offline VinnieRL

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Re: 14.5" Kit From ZZP
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2015, 09:03:29 PM »
When do we start talking about straight lines and ABS?
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Offline elff

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Re: 14.5" Kit From ZZP
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2015, 09:37:02 PM »
"Big brakes don't normally stop any faster"
Doesn't that mean, at times, they do stop faster?

"It's more than Adequate, but it needs tweaking"
means
Its not adequate.  If it was adequate, it would not need any tweaking.
That statement is then explained with a setup that has replaced everything but the Calipers. 

But when someone upgrades the last component, the calipers, with a matching rotor size, all of a sudden that is the breaking point for being unnecessary.
 :idk:

Tires are an integral part of stopping.  A lot of kappa owners already have some of the best street legal rubber you can legally have and pass inspection.  So that can't be improved anymore.

Offline VinnieRL

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Re: 14.5" Kit From ZZP
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2015, 09:42:23 PM »
While I understand all the points being made......I should probably rename this thread so it's search friendly.  Right now it has nothing to do with the ZZP kit.
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Offline TomatoSoup

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2015, 10:34:33 PM »
Hawks I think got their name from the screech they make when you apply them.  And they continue to make noise until they are hot.  Unless you ride your brakes you can't keep them hot enough to be quiet in normal street driving.

Sorry, but that's just BS from my experience.  I have Hawk Ceramics (HB524Z740) on the fronts and HPS (HB478F605) on the rears - per DDM's recommendation.  I have NEVER, not once, had any squeal out of them.  Not when they're cold, not hot, not ever.  They just work and work well.

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Offline VinnieRL

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2015, 10:38:46 PM »
I had Hawks on Powerslot rotors on a previous vehicle and they were terrible.  Cold braking didn't exist.  I've since switched to EBC and haven't been happier.
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2015, 11:22:13 PM »
More Pistons equals better control. Not every braking situation is maximum effort. Even wear and even pressure is always better.
Stock parts are not always known for their consistency.
A high quality aftermarket set up might well be better in daily driving applications.

The arguments on the extreme situations of tire grip only apply in those situations. What about the 99% of the time when tire grip isn't the issue?  Can't it be better to have more control over braking modulation? Better brakes may provide that. Better brakes may provide better pedal feel. Better brakes may last longer.  Better brakes may just be better.

Necessary?  Who knows.
Better is better.
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Offline cdflint

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2015, 01:05:46 AM »
I like candy.

I have hawk pads for the OEM brake calipers sitting in the garage and a set of front Rotora's I could use. The Rotoras need new pads and rotor disks (or turned) though. Using the better brake pads at this point may be my direction first.
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Offline elff

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2015, 09:13:42 AM »
Necessary?  Who knows.
Better is better.

Best statement of this thread.

TS.  Were you at the Mod meet with Kenny.  If you always heard a high squealing when a Black Sky entered or left the neighborhood, the answer would be yes.
That was the Hawk pads on Kenny's car.
We ran into the exact same situation on my wife's mini

Offline TomatoSoup

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2015, 10:29:54 AM »
Best statement of this thread.

TS.  Were you at the Mod meet with Kenny.  If you always heard a high squealing when a Black Sky entered or left the neighborhood, the answer would be yes.
That was the Hawk pads on Kenny's car.
We ran into the exact same situation on my wife's mini
I was at a couple with Kenny, but don't recall the squeal.  Maybe it was the particular pads, maybe needed anti-squeal.  Dunno.  All I can say is mine have been fine.
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Offline elff

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2015, 10:46:42 AM »
It was the last meet.

In your case, we have determined that you do have special car powers, so maybe your pads are scared of you and remain quiet
:lol:

Offline TomatoSoup

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2015, 11:06:35 AM »
My photo...



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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2015, 11:06:45 AM »
Kenny's car was anything but stealth.
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Offline wspohn

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2015, 11:12:05 AM »
You guys and your bigger is better litany remind me of the people that want to stick on huge capacity 'cold' air intakes. They just look at the flow figures, and say 'Hey, bigger has to be better, right' in that simple minded way, without analyzing the situation.

If a given engine requires 300 cfm of air and the stock intake system can supply 400 cfm, there is absolutely no benefit to having a system that could theoretically flow 800, because you are obviously never going to need it.

Same thing with brakes.  If the brakes as set up by you with good pads etc. are capable of dealing with converting whatever amount of kinetic energy you are likely to be converting to heat in a given time, with a bit of margin of safety,  having brakes capable of dealing with twice that amount of heat gets you absolutely nothing except a big Visa bill and the supposed admiration of any onlookers that are of likewise non-analytical bent, or just happen to like big things (hence the V8 conversions using older engines that result in less power than the 4 cylinder they ripped out.

To each his own - I'm not saying people shouldn't spend money on their cars for whatever turns them on, just that we should be honest and analytical about what the needs and goals are.

It's all about actual results.

Jack, I have noted an improvement with more than one caliper piston.  I am a bit of a student of disc brake development - the car I race was the second series production car in the world to have 4 wheel disc brakes, and I've followed the history of Dunlop/Girling over the years in my racing hobby.  The earliest race brakes were alloy caliper single piston (the AR, BR and CR series) that were used first in the late 1950s and continued through the 1960s. In fact it wasn't until the late 1970s that multi-piston crept into racing and 1980s before it became common on the street.

They were basically an alloy version of what was used on the Triumph TR-3, and back in the day the race compound for Formula 1 and below was Ferodo DS-11, a compound I used for many years on my sports cars that I raced, until better non-asbestos pads became available. All the race cars of the day used them, Cobras, Lolas, Maseratis etc.

On the street they didn't start trying multi-piston calpers until the very late 1960s, and only then on the then current super cars. My 1969 Lamborghini uses a 3 piston caliper, with one large inner and two small outers.  Obviously I haven't had the chance to drive the same car with only two piston brakes, but I am told by those that know that it increased feel and improved ability to modulate.  My car was originally delivered with the same Ferodo DS-11 compound that I raced on, and it must have been an issue for some cars as the darned things didn't work well until they were warm - I'd routinely hang the race car rear end off the first hairpin turn if I had to start a race cold (I rode the brakes with my left foot if we had a warm up lap, just to be sure the brakes would grab on the first race lap).
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Offline elff

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2015, 11:51:04 AM »
You guys and your bigger is better litany remind me of the people that want to stick on huge capacity 'cold' air intakes. They just look at the flow figures, and say 'Hey, bigger has to be better, right' in that simple minded way, without analyzing the situation.
No one in this thread is stating that, so it doesn't apply

Same thing with brakes.  If the brakes as set up by you with good pads etc. are capable of dealing with converting whatever amount of kinetic energy you are likely to be converting to heat in a given time, with a bit of margin of safety,
What you are assuming is that people are not driving in a manner that raises this heat threshold above the levels you have achieved in your kappa driving.
Some of us have.  We get it, you don't believe it.  But you have Zero proof to deny it.  You only have your opinion.

Some of us would like a little more of a safety factor
Some of us don't mind spending an addition $200 for what may be overkill, if we are already spending $800
More is better, Too much is still safe.  The 2 things that are 100% true are the following
1. Too little is when you have a failure
2. These big brake kits do NOT REDUCE the Kappa's brake capability below the stock level

having brakes capable of dealing with twice that amount of heat gets you absolutely nothing except a big Visa bill
Actually the cost difference is pretty negligible as detailed above and as detailed in other threads.

or just happen to like big things (hence the V8 conversions using older engines that result in less power than the 4 cylinder they ripped out.
Please show us one example of a V8 conversion that has less HP and Torque than a stock LNF with a Stock Turbo.
This is more of your opinion and it is not based in fact.

To each his own - I'm not saying people shouldn't spend money on their cars for whatever turns them on, just that we should be honest and analytical about what the needs and goals are.
You are acting like your experience trumps others experience and knowledge
Heat dissipation is based on surface area
Bigger rotors and bigger pads = increased heat dissipation. 
This is physics.  It is objective science

The real debate is your opinion of people not driving in situations where the above science is needed.

Jack, I have noted an improvement with more than one caliper piston.

Thank You for backing up our point that the calipers will improve performance.
Brembos and Wilwood calipers have more than 1 piston.



Offline Oceansol

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2015, 01:43:58 PM »
plus, it's totally COOL!

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2015, 05:14:28 PM »
Is interesting how every one here is ignoring or at least not talking about the most important part of the system, that been the TIRES.
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Offline wspohn

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2015, 05:23:32 PM »
Is interesting how every one here is ignoring or at least not talking about the most important part of the system, that been the TIRES.


Well not everyone - from my post above:

"You guys are completely forgetting what the normal limiting factor for brakes is.  It isn't brake size, and with a properly designed system it isn't the number of pistons in the calipers.

It IS the tire compound and when it breaks contact with the ground and starts to slide that limits braking.  Once you have fade free brakes, you can refine them a bit (multiple pistons can apply the pads more evenly and bigger pad area can spread the force over more surface and aid cooling) but after that the only way to stop faster is to buy some stickier tires!  Doesn't matter if you had 12 pistons with ginormous pads, if you don't have the grab at the tire/ground interface, your brakes aren't going to work any better."

Ellf, you keep parroting the principals of braking as if I haven't been saying the same thing.  Now that we have established that we all know what we need to know about heat, can we move on to my statement that if a system can shed all the heat it can generate, bigger brakes get you nothing?

And there have been a few engine swaps using LS1 and even old SBB motors that have put out less power than a mildly modded LNF engine.

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Offline elff

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2015, 06:30:06 PM »
Is interesting how every one here is ignoring or at least not talking about the most important part of the system, that been the TIRES.

"You guys are completely forgetting what the normal limiting factor for brakes is.  It isn't brake size, and with a properly designed system it isn't the number of pistons in the calipers.

It IS the tire compound and when it breaks contact with the ground and starts to slide that limits braking. 

Both of you need to look harder at the posts.  This has been addressed but I will quote since you both seemed to miss this as well as the reason as to why it really doesn't apply.
Tires are an integral part of stopping.  A lot of kappa owners already have some of the best street legal rubber you can legally have and pass inspection.  So that can't be improved anymore.
To restate this.
Most people considering brake upgrades are running extremely sticky summer tires.
Dunlop Star Specs
Michelin Pilot Super Sports
Toyo Proxes
Continenal Extreme Contact DW or DWs[These are actually less sticky but still excellent choice that are extremely popular]
Etc...
The next step is R-Comps.  They are not street legal, and they won't last on the road.

And there have been a few engine swaps using LS1 and even old SBB motors that have put out less power than a mildly modded LNF engine.
My comments on this is
1. You can't fix stupid
2. Why?
3. I have an upgraded LNF
4. The V8 swaps that have less hp and TQ than the stock LNF have to be very few and far in between
and last but not least
5. How the Fawk do you find a V8 that makes less than 260 Engine Hp?????

Offline Critterman

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2015, 08:45:44 PM »
TS-  I call BS on your BS.   My pads sounded like fingernails on a chaulk board.  DDM replaced them for me free of charge because they couldn't stand them either
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Offline VinnieRL

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2015, 08:49:41 PM »
This is what prompted my question. I didn't drive the car for a few weeks and the pads froze to the rotor on the rear.  Now I have this going on:



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Offline cdflint

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2015, 09:02:28 PM »
Eek, I like brownies too.

Did Kenny have the HP plus pads for racing? Even DDM says not recommended for street cars. The HPS pads should be the better pad for street use without the noise. But I'm just talking out my asz since you had installed on your car. Critterman which were the first set you placed?

For me I just bought a good deal and picked them up. Not that I need or believe it will make a considerable difference. My MGP covers give the look I like.
She's an 09 Brazen GXP.

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Offline TomatoSoup

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2015, 10:16:49 PM »
TS-  I call BS on your BS.   My pads sounded like fingernails on a chaulk board.  DDM replaced them for me free of charge because they couldn't stand them either

They had just learned from you on how to complain loudly!  :lol:
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Offline elff

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Re: Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2015, 10:21:15 PM »
:lol:

Offline Gentleman Jack

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Big Brake Kit or Upgraded Pads and Rotors?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2015, 11:48:41 PM »
Concise report of this thread:

If you are on stock tires and looking to spend bucks on big brakes- get better tires instead, and upgrade pads.

If this isn't enough for your driving needs, get more Pistons in your calipers. In order to do this, you will need bigger rotors or be really creative with Porsche Boxster calipers.

And for gods sake, CHANGE YOUR DAMN BRAKE FLUID.


That should end that.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 10:14:43 AM by Gentleman Jack »
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