Topic: Campaign to Initiate NHTSA Investigation into Kappa Passenger Presence Sensor

[Sly Bob]

I am elated that with RoboTech's knowledge and many hours of his time that he put into this we were able to get this resolved but more than a little perturbed that this is process that has to be followed to get an issue like this fixed.

GM clearly stated that the airbag would not deploy in the case of a crash if there was a fault in the system. If they were aware of this, and I can't see how this is news to GM, then why on earth was this whole process necessary???

  for the rant, I feel better now...

[Sol Asylum]

Uh $

How much is it going to cost to fix every Kappa in the US alone?

Prior to now it was the owners fault if they drove a car with this issue and GM's legal team didn't have to do much more so that cost risk was pretty low.

It's basic risk management.

[Whitey Couper]

Thanks RT and TS, it was an uphill battle but worth it. Also to everybody else involved.

[Gentleman Jack]

 Nicely done everyone!

I have an idea.

[Sly Bob]

Nicely done everyone!

I have an idea.

Oh Oh!   

[Robotech]

I am elated that with RoboTech's knowledge and many hours of his time that he put into this we were able to get this resolved but more than a little perturbed that this is process that has to be followed to get an issue like this fixed.

GM clearly stated that the airbag would not deploy in the case of a crash if there was a fault in the system. If they were aware of this, and I can't see how this is news to GM, then why on earth was this whole process necessary???

  for the rant, I feel better now...

While cost and risk management plays a huge role, I don't believe GM WANTS people to get hurt in their cars.  I have not yet become so jaded as to believe monsters run GM. LOL

It comes down to frequency of failure and the culture inside GM when it comes to evaluating potential problems. I have worked for a manufacturer that went through a similar problem. So, story time...

I worked for a company that built RC Cars...HPI Racing. We had come out with a nitro powered 2wd truck called the Rush. Shortly after releasing it, we started hearing about people tearing up the plastic spur gears. With RC cars, gear mesh is critical and it is possible to get the mesh wrong which will result in a damaged gear. We had seen this issue with other cars before and it was a common user error with not just our cars, but RC cars in general.

The issue though seemed to be more pronounced with the Rush than in other cars...not a ton, but a little. Since HPI had limited experience with off road cars, the problem was seen more of user error. It took about a year to discover that the problem was with the chassis design. People would drive the truck, jump it, and have it land in the middle of the chassis rather than on the wheels on the lips of jumps.  This would cause the chassis to bend lightly along a diagonal line across the chassis right between the spur gear and motor. This would open up the gear mesh and cause the damage.

Even so, the failure number was less than 5% of all vehicles sold. Thus while the failures were more common than in our other cars, it still wasn't super high and it took seeing this failure trend grow before we determined the issue and started working on a fix.

It came down to how big is the problem and how much will it cost to fix it? Is it really a major problem or not? For us, at first, the failure rate fell into acceptable limits but the problem grew it forced us to look deeper at the problem. The fact the issue continued while the cars were still under warranty helped.

GM, I feel, was in the same boat with our cars but on a more global scale.  Take all the complaints received and add up the number of reported failures from those complaints and the failure rate still falls in at less than 5% of production numbers. The CTS, with the data provided by GM, showed a slightly higher failure rate but one that was very comparable to the Kappas. Because the CTS was built in far greater numbers though, the number of failures in the CTS was much higher and, when you couple this with the difference in how both cars accrued miles over time, it's easy to see that GM was getting A LOT more reports of sensor mat failures with the CTS than with the Kappa while both cars were under warranty.

This is where the GM culture comes into play. Since GM only looked at warranty...both factory and extended...repairs, the Kappas didn't look like they were suffering the number of failures as the CTS. The issue is, most Kappas ran out of their 3 year/36K mile warranty on years long before they ran out of miles. (as an example, my car had 44K miles on it 8 years after it entered warranty) Compared to the CTS's 4 year/50K mile warranty, the CTS had more time and miles to have the issue reveal itself than the Kappas. Because GM only looked at warranty data to determine a problem, they wouldn't catch the Kappa's problem since the issue doesn't really peak until 25K+ miles are on the car.

Thus I hope this (though seriously doubt) incident not only gives us a recall on this problem but also changes the GM culture when it comes to detecting potential safety issues. With GM under the watchful eye of the NHTSA now (because of the ignition switch issue) there may be some hope of GM and their NHTSA Watchdogs going over this issue.

[2kwk4u]

Fair points, but the more jaded and cynical point of view is that GM has to look out for their investors' interest first and foremost.  The numbers are crunched and someone figures out that lawsuits will cost less than recalls - particularly if the problem is kept under wraps.  I suspect the publicity helped our cause.

[Robotech]

Even with what I had above investors' interests and profits play a key role.

First, for reference the CTS recall was initiated by GM, not an outside party. This, to me, means that while investors' interest and profits play a role, that won't stop GM from issuing a recall.  Let's face it, even when greed and profits are a motivating factor, they know bad publicity and a possible lawsuit because their product could kill someone is going to cost them money and thus motivate a recall too.

But the way I looked at this when doing my research was why were they willing to do the CTS but not the Kappas? What was different? The main difference comes down to reporting numbers and whether or not those numbers point to a big problem that could lead to lawsuits, bad press, loss of brand trustworthiness, and lost profits or not.

In my example with HPI, it was no different. Do we have a problem that, by ignoring it, will cost us more money than addressing and fixing it? Is the problem really as big as our customers think it is. (Because, believe me, customers can blow things out of proportion. Look up the history of the introduction of New Coke for an example of a minority opinion swaying the majority opinion.)

[Robotech]

Wanted to post this news as a separate post.

Transport Canada has issued the recall:

http://www.timescolonist.com/transport-canada-issues-safety-recall-of-7-143-pontiac-and-saturn-vehicles-1.9711723

[tallcraig]

I called Jan 27/17 to register with GM Customer Service. THANK YOU from the "Great White North" !

[Whitey Couper]

When the day comes for me to take it in for the recall, I will schedule it on a day with no chance of rain. I will remove the roof top (for the first time) and leave it on my bed upside down. I will go as a customer waiting status. I don't want them screwing up the weatherstrips or paint on the roof.

[ChrisPrice]

We did it!

Many thanks to Robotech. When I saw his paper, I said, NHTSA has to read this, so I put the two in touch... and the rest is history.

[Robotech]

Thanks everyone. It was a team effort.

We did it!

Many thanks to Robotech. When I saw his paper, I said, NHTSA has to read this, so I put the two in touch... and the rest is history.

Thank you Chris. From the very beginning that was the goal...to get that in the hands of the NHTSA and GM.  I truly believed, and it looks like I was right, that after reading that and looking at the evidence there was no way they couldn't recall it. I always kept my expectations low because I didn't want to get too excited but I could not be happier with the outcome so far.

Of course, what remains to be seen is GM's remedy to the problem. Best case scenario for me is all cars are recalled and a new, updated sensor mat is issued. We'll see what happens.

[Robotech]

The recall is official. From the NHTSA site:

January 26, 2017 NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V061000
Front Passenger Air bag may not Deploy
In the event of a crash, if the front passenger air bag does not deploy as intended, the front passenger has an increased risk of injury.

NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V061000
Manufacturer General Motors LLC
Components AIR BAGS
Potential Number of Units Affected 91,007

Summary
General Motors LLC (GM) is recalling certain 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles. The Passenger Air Bag Suppression System (PPS) sensor may become bent or damaged within the front passenger seat, possibly disabling the front passenger air bag.

Remedy
The remedy for this recall is still under development. The manufacturer has not yet provided a notification schedule. Owners may contact Pontiac customer service at 1-800-762-2737 or Saturn customer service at 1-800-553-6000. GM's number for this recall is 17036.

Notes
Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov.

Also, GM now has 60 days (April 9th) to notify owners of the defect. It is hoped, by that time, that a remedy will be added to this recall.

[Sol Asylum]

Got my letter from GM about the recall today.

[Gentleman Jack]

Pretty cool stuff accomplished here. Many many kudos.

[CPB]

Got my recall letter today Just hope they work out the fix soon

[Sly Bob]

Any Canadians get a letter yet?

[Gentleman Jack]

Any Canadians get a letter yet?

Have they invented paper in Canadia yet?

[Critterman]

I got mine today.  It said no Canadians need apply

[Sly Bob]

Have they invented paper in Canadia yet?

They would typically send it out printed on a piece of birch bark.

[ChopTop]

General Motors LLC (GM) is recalling "certain" 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles.

Why does it say "certain", and not all?  Does this have to do w/Mexico Solstice's and Europe's Opel GT cars?

[2kwk4u]

General Motors LLC (GM) is recalling "certain" 2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice and 2007-2010 Saturn Sky vehicles.

Why does it say "certain", and not all?  Does this have to do w/Mexico Solstice's and Europe's Opel GT cars?

Just the ones that aren't already totaled / salvaged titles? 

[tallcraig]

Any Canadians get a letter yet?

I got my letter today Bob. I would hate to remove my DDMWorks SUPERCHARGED 3D decal just to see if I had an airbag light or not.
Do you think GM will reimburse me.......
for the decal?

[Sly Bob]

Yeah I received mine yesterday. I suspect they will only be changing the mat on cars that have had or will have issues. I haven't had an issue with mine yet...