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Author Topic: Upgrade Suggestions  (Read 6033 times)

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Offline kgschlosser

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Upgrade Suggestions
« on: June 06, 2020, 12:32:31 AM »
I have an 08 Solstice GXP that was involved in an Elk to car impact. The Elk ran into the side of the car when it was running at full steam. Put the car up onto 2 wheels, It was quite spectacular. None the less after 2 years of fighting with the insurance company about the condition of the car they finally totaled it. The totaling of the car was because of lack of being able to get some of the parts and also because the top of the body got pushed over between 1/16 and 1/8 inch. The Elk ran into the drivers door/b pillar area. On the passenger side of the car with the door closed the door is recessed into the body at the top and sticking out at the bottom. The car drives tru so there is nothing wrong with the chassis with respect to that. I put new tires on the car just before the accident took place and after 2 years of driving, 9000 total miles or so the tire wear is perfect the tires are only good for about 15k-18k miles or so. I would know if something was off after going through 50% of the tire.

After the insurance companies first valuation of the car (which was pretty amusing actually) I ended up with a good payout of 20K. I bought the car back from the insurance company and because of how the laws are worded here in Colorado the car does not have to get a salvage title. I can fix the body damage no worries there. I bought the door and all of the goodies that go along with it. what's great is it is already the same color and only has a few chips along the edge by the handle. I ordered an RK Sport hood and body kit and also the Duraflex fenders so that covers the rest of the body damage. I can tweak the passenger door so it will match up properly.

Total cost of parts is about 2K and I am guesstimating the paint to be around 2500 or so. Lets call the repair 5 grand. So now I have another 15 I can put into the car. My question is what should I buy? I do not want to get into rebuilding the motor just yet as it has < 60K on it and I put < 5K a year on it. With COVID-19 the car will see < 500 miles this year I am pretty sure. The clutch I will replace when I cook it along with the flywheel.


I need a setup that will perform at 8500ft elevation. The car rarely drives in the winter due to the 3-5 foot snow falls we get. The months I am able to drive are from Mothers Day to Halloween. About 5 1/2 months. I would love to see between 350 and 400 whp but I do not think the stock internals would be able to handle the boost needed to generate that hp at altitude. I like the fast spooling the stock turbo has currently I do not like the fall off at higher rpm. I think the turbo gets to full boost around 3750 RPM with the car creating max hp at 4250 or so and then it starts to fall off to red line. I would love to see more bottom end hp and torque if possible and to hold max hp for longer then 500 rpms.

The trick is going to be the altitude the lowest altitude I will drive at is 5800 but normally I am in the 7-8k foot area.

This is the list of things I am thinking of doing what I do not know is brands.

Intercooler
Charge Pipes
Exhaust
Catted down pipe
Turbo (big wheel or full replacement)
CAI
MAP sensor (if needed)
Body bracing (backbone brace and the like)
Tune
Upgraded clamps and hoses.
Front big brake kit. with a 2 piece rotor


We have some really twisty roads so suspension work I am willing to do except these 2 things, lowering and changing to a larger wheel diameter. I live on a dirt road and I do not want to get the crap beat out of myself on the mile drive on that road to get to my house.

I really like the tires I am currently, Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 235/50R18 and I have about 50% tread left So I will probably not change those either and when I do I will get the same thing (possibly wider)


I believe wheel choices for this car are somewhat limited even more so in the 18" category. If I go wider on the wheels it is not going to be by much. I do not know how much the offset can change in the rear before rubbing something on the inside. But the tires have to stay under the wheel wells. I personally do not have an appeal to a car that looks like a roller skate.

I am not concerned about noise tho I do not want to run a straight pipe for an exhaust. I am ok with dumped to atmosphere waste gates if changing out the turbo. If a big wheel upgrade will get me to where I want to be I would like to know what the thoughts are on an external BOV?

I am looking for known combinations of things that work and work reliability, I do like to tinker but spending more time tinkering then driving is not what doing these upgrades is all about. Tuning the ECU if it can be done without the use of a dyno is going to be ideal. This is because of the altitude I am at. There are no dynos in my area the closest one I believe is in the Denver area, and that is a 2500 foot elevation drop from where I am. I am a software engineer/computer nerd by trade and I have had my fingers in designing some of the first immobilizer bypass modules  used in remote starters. I am pretty well versed in vehicle electrics and I have a pretty decent knowledge about cars in general. I have an odd way of doing things sometimes and some may think it strange. I can do an alignment on a car without using any kind of a computerized device and the car will be within spec. On my Lincoln MKS when I changed the suspension (all at once) I did an alignment using a string and my eyeballs and only a single adjustment was out by 0.1 degrees.

Any and all help and or suggestions are really appreciated. The list above is not a complete list it is only the things I have thought about and done a little research into. The largest thing is I do not want to rebuild the engine yet, so whatever is needed to get the most out of the stock internals without killing the engine in a small time frame is what I am looking for.








Offline joybill44

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 08:13:14 AM »
One place you might want to try is DDMWORKS. They offer a lot of the things you are looking for.

Offline Sly Bob

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 09:14:38 AM »
Lots and lots of stuff there but sounds like you are on the right track and that you have a good handle on things.
Just trying to do my part...

Mods: Lose the chicklets, VentureShield, Dual horns, AfterShock spoiler, Weathershield cover, Lil Chromies, Red calipers with black Solstice stickers, Opel GT antenna and Solo GXP-RCD exhaust with a Solo hi-flow cat!

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 03:50:43 PM »
Lots and lots of stuff there but sounds like you are on the right track and that you have a good handle on things.

I am only book smart at this point. what I need is advice from someone that has experience. and can provide me some input on what is going to give me the best bang for my buck and also not blow anything up or cause problems because of another aftermarket components. I would also like to know what upgrades work well with other upgrades. as we all know there are multiple manufacturers for things like exhausts, charge pipes and CAI's. while a turbo upgrade from one manufacturer may work well with one brand of exhaust it may not get to optimal output using another brand. These are the extremely useful  pieces of information that I am looking for. It always sucks to spend a grip of cash on something and not have it perform the way it's wanted.



One place you might want to try is DDMWORKS. They offer a lot of the things you are looking for.

I have checked them out. They have stopped selling turbo upgrades. The only thing they have that I am going to be buying is the pro beam and the short shifter. The backbone brace is a flat piece of metal and I do not need to have them charge me 220 bucks for one. I can make one out of 1/2 or 5/8's aluminum easily enough. a jijsaw will have no issues with cutting that thickness aluminum stock. and the "Venom" supports are round steel with a flange welded onto either end and a fancy paint job. This is also really easy to make and not worth spending 125 + shipping on. The paint doesn't mean diddly to me. things like charge tubes and CAI I am going to end up taking the powder coating off of it and getting out the 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000 and 5000 grit emery along with the rouge wheel to give them a polish to a level that makes them look chrome plated.

Just like I don't see the attraction to the roller skate. I am not one to have a billboard on wheels either. anything that is not going to be seen I m not going to polish. But everything that can be seen is going to to be polished.

I also have a sand blaster that I picked up. I will probably use that to get the powder coat off. I believe that different grits of sand can be used that will start off the polishing process. I have to do more resarch on it. I am also going to have to locate a larger compressor. my 20gal is not going to be enough to operate a sand blaster.





Offline Sly Bob

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2020, 09:16:25 AM »
Might I suggest you break this down in pieces? You aren't going to do all mods at once anyway.

If you are planning on pushing the engine hard, you might have to build up the engine with rods, pistons and other things. Performance Autowerks is another vendor that many have used, not sure if they offer a big wheel turbo.

You talk about a backbone. I did like you are talking about and made one, had it powder coated for less than what it would have cost me for a can of spray paint. Some though might not have the skills, tools or interest in making one themselves.

A great vendor for exhaust and a hi flow cat is Solo Performance. They are a supporting vendor here but more importantly they are great people to deal with and will bend over backwards to help is you have an issue off any sort.

Tuning is generally better to do after a mod is complete but not necessary to do. You won't however see an increase in performance with an engine mod until a tune as the engine will learn down until a tune is complete. If you are planning on multiple mods you could complete them and tune with HP tuners. You would either tune yourself or have a vendor like DDM help you with it. There is often someone on the forums selling HP Tuners. You may or may not have to buy credits to use it on your car.

Breaking your questions into smaller posts might elicit more responses.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 09:29:16 AM by Sly Bob »
Just trying to do my part...

Mods: Lose the chicklets, VentureShield, Dual horns, AfterShock spoiler, Weathershield cover, Lil Chromies, Red calipers with black Solstice stickers, Opel GT antenna and Solo GXP-RCD exhaust with a Solo hi-flow cat!

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2020, 03:53:02 PM »
PAW does sell the big wheel turbo.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline Steelmesh

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 09:49:50 AM »
Very interesting turbo sizing challenge, I'm trying to learn and practice this stuff anyway.

K04 compressor map:


Your goal is 350 whp (410 bhp) @ 8500 ft. 

Looking at this: https://s4wiki.com/wiki/Compressor_map

410 hp / 10 = 41 lbs/min airflow
or
410 hp / 1620 = 0.25 m3/s (units used in that compressor map)

You're going to need a bigger turbo because of the elevation. I assume your horsepower goal was inspired by near sea level power numbers people have done with the LNF.
2006 Solstice #1458, Twincharged LE5/LEA, 5757+M62, Werks exh manifold, Tial bpv/wg, Cams, dual meth, 40 PSI, Kappadapt clutch hose/flywheel bolts/trans mount, Aisin AR5, Stage 5 clutch
Turbo-only power 444whp/422wtrq

2013 Cruze Missile, tuned, 42 lb, ZZP SRI/FMIC/DP/MP/CB, Kappadapt trans mount

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Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2020, 01:00:50 PM »
@Steelmesh

I do not have a problem with doing a different turbo all together, there are several companies that have put together bolt on replacements that would be fairly easy. I know there are limits to what the stock LNF motor can do. I have heard this magic number of 24psi being thrown around a lot. Now... is 24psi the limit because of how high the pressure is inside the cylinder, or is 24psi the limit because the stock internals are not able to handle the detonation? This is the question I do not have the answer to. Because at 24psi at 8500FT elevation the engine will be generating about 70% of the power it would be at sea level. So if the issue is because of the detonation then I would be able to run the boost pressure higher. If it is because of compression pressure then I would not be able to. If it is a combination of both I should be able to boost higher then I would at sea level by a psi or 2.

From what I have read on the internet (and i do not know how much of this is factual) the LNF motor at sea level right from the factory would spool to about 14psi or so. This is obviously the "safe area" that the engineers determined. because of my altitude the ECU moves the boost to 18psi. If the internals of the LNF are not able to handle the power caused by the detonation above 24psi it would be likely to assume that 24psi is a sea level maximum and 28psi or so would be a high altitude maximum. This is because there is a lower concentration of O2 and extra pressure is needed in order to get the same number of O2 molecules into the cylinder that you see at 24psi at sea level.

I called RPM motorsports last week. No one answered the phone and I left a message. I have not received a phone call back. I also reached out to Trifecta via there "contact us" page which only has a form to fill out. again I have not had a response. I am guessing that these companies do not want my business, it's quite frustrating.


@Sly Bob
I am doing all of this all at once. My car is only going to be worked on a single time to take care of all of the body damage and also all upgrades. The door, door glass, window regulator, window motor, mirror and driver side seat belt will be here tomorrow. The hood, bumper cover, side skirts, and fenders will be here next week. I am going to manufacture my own backbone brace and any other body stiffening I decide to add. The only body stiffening part I am gong to purchase is the beam behind the seats.

I am starting the tear down today. I know this process is going to take a month or a month and a half by time I manage to get all of the parts needed.

Once I have gotten everything installed and tuned and the car running right and the body panels aligned correctly I will begin the tear down process. I am going to tear down the body of the car removing the top, doors, hood, bumper covers, interior (all except dashboard), windshield, fenders, wheel houses, rear deck lid, trunk lining and all associated trim parts and pieces. I do not want any over spray in any of the jambs on the car or any tape lines around glass or lenses this is the reason for the tear down. I will then have the car and all parts flat bedded to the body shop to be prepped and painted. I should be able to get about a month between the time I get the first assembly done until I tear the car down again for "fun" time driving the car to test the new performance components and to make sure that the fitment of the aftermarket body panels is correct and not going to cause any issues and also to change anything that needs to be changed or make adjustments to the bits that need adjusting.

This is how it should be done.


@Steelmesh

I wanted to say fantastic job with the detail of your post. I love it when a full explanation is given and not just an answer. I am a HUGE fan of learning. I am a computer/software engineer where I mainly worked with the electrics and the computer systems in cars. I helped develop the first transponder bypass modules that still get used today (remote starters) and also had my fingers in several other interface module designs. This is where my knowledge about vehicles comes from. I didn't just do the reverse engineering aspects, I also did the tear down and re assembly of the vehicles.

While I know the basics of how a turbo works I do not know all of the details. If you dropped a Chevy 350 in front of me I could tell you anything you wanted to know about how it works. So engine mechanical is not an issue, when getting into the world of boosting there are many variables to take into consideration. While math does help to point you to the right decisions to make it is experience that is going to push a person to the final decision. I love to do suspension work. I think it is because of the variables and math. I can do an alignment on a car without using an alignment machine and I can get the car to specification armed with a measuring tape, level, string, pencil, paper and a contraption I made to hold the level vertical next to a wheel to check camber, and also the typical wrenches/hammer needed to do the alignment. I made my own alignment plates for unloading the suspension and centering the steering out of Trex decking and wheel bearing grease (this works fantastic!!!). I know how to think to solve problems is what I am getting at. So the more information you can provide me the happier I will be. Also don't worry about the "geek speak" or talking over my head, if I do not understand something or I have a question I will ask for clarification.

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 03:40:45 PM »
I would suggest you contact Werks and look at their 6758 or WR2 to be able to attain your numbers. I have the large wheel and it was tuned by DDM to 350/350 BHP/Torque and it attains those figures with everything stock on the car at 24PSI to 25PSI.
I was the original designer of the Venom Brace and will tell you your biggest issue if you are going to fabricated yourself is going to be the brackets. I use to sell it to the forum for $95.00 including the powder coating. After a while I just gave Dave from DDM the OK to duplicate the design and to sell it, provided he kept the name Venom Brace.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2020, 11:01:57 PM »
So here is some calculations. Tell me if I am wrong here but this is how I am understanding this.
Given these constants we are able to determine the required boost needed
at sea level in order to attain the target HP

displacement: 121.9 (ci)
max RPM: 6700
volumetric effiency: 88% (typ for 4 valves per cylinder)


base horse power: 260 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 221 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 10.22psi


base horse power: 350 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 297.5 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 18.85psi


base horse power: 400 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 340 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 23.64psi

base horse power: 450 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 382.5 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)


Needed boost @ sea level: 28.44psi


Using "bolt ons" we can improve the VE (volumetric effiency). My understanding is that
the LNF motors are pretty choked and have a low VE. hence the 88% I put above.
Now By changing the exhaust, charge pipes, intercooler, down pipe and put in a CAI lets say we end up with a 96% VE


So new constants.

displacement: 121.9 (ci)
max RPM: 6700
volumetric effiency: 96% (typ for 4 valves per cylinder)


base horse power: 260 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 221 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 8.15psi


base horse power: 350 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 297.5 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 16.05psi


base horse power: 400 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 340 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 20.45psi

base horse power: 450 (flywheel)
wheel hp: 382.5 (bhp - 15% for drivetrain)

Needed boost @ sea level: 24.84psi


So if you only upgrade the items mentioned above on the stock LNF if you maintain the same boost level there
will be a 25 hp gain.

This is all math and is not real world application. there are all kinds of things that will alter the numbers. things
like air density nd temperature. This is to provide a way to visualize the benifits for upgrading an intercooler and
charge pipes. doing the bolt on mods can make a HUGE impact.

Now these are some more numbers with an ambient air temperature of 75 degrees

atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi @ sea level an LNF will boost to 14psi.

atmospheric air pressure @ 8500 foot elevation is 10.82psi and i get a boost of 18psi.

You see that there the increased boost pressure is there to only make up for the 4psi diference
in the atmospheric air pressure.

So I should be able to boost my car to 28 psi without issue so long as I have a turbo that is capable of
producing that pressure.


I should without an issue be able to produce 440bhp keeping the internal pressures of the engine at the same as it
would be at sea level. to make 440bhp at sea level I would need to have 23.96psi of boost. at 8500fl elevation to
produce that same bhp I would be at just under 28psi of boost. The engine is not seeing any increased pressures compared
to sea level because of the offset for the drop in atmospheric air pressure due to altitude.

All of the above is theoretical of course. But I should be able to boost the engine to 28psi because I am starting out 4psi lower then sea level.


@LatinVenom
I am not interested in the powder coating at all but there is no offer of buying it unfinished. This is one of the reasons why I was leaning towards making some of the body bracing myself.
Because of what you have said about the brackets I am assuming that the photo that DDM has for the braces does not show all of the pieces. It looks like the brackets are L stock welded onto the end of a pipe with a hole drilled into it for a bolt to go through. It looks like the bars are pin straight as well.
But if you say that it is not cut and dry to make the things I will take your word for it. for the 125 I will probably just order them and spend the time to remove the finish.


Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2020, 11:05:16 PM »
Oh I also did want to mention that to produce the 260 HP using close to 14psi of boost which is what the stock setup is the VE would be 77% which is horrid!!!!!!

Offline Steelmesh

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2020, 10:57:53 AM »
Take those theoretical boost targets and convert them into pressure ratios to get that perspective, the result will be telling if you're going to be way too far off the compressor map. 

Pressure Ratio = (local atm pressure + boost pressure) / local atm pressure

18 psi boost = (14.7 + 18) / 14.7 = 2.22 P/R

18 psi boost = (11 + 18) / 11 = 2.62 P/R

28 psi boost = (14.7 + 28) / 14.7 = 2.90 P/R

28 psi boost = (11 + 28) / 11 = 3.54 P/R

Look at that compressor map for the K04, the horizontal lines that fall off at higher air flow are the turbo speed lines, you can see turbo will become over spun above recommended speeds which isn't the end of the world but you are losing efficiency (making more heat than power) and reducing the life of the turbocharger. 

The other factor is the size of the turbine and consideration of back pressure.  The stock turbine will become a restriction and backpressure will start to exceed boost pressure (1:1 good, 1:2 bad where exhaust backpressure is twice manifold boost pressure).  If you can't instrument this pressure to see where you're at, you'd see HP steadily fall off as rpms increase if this is a restriction.

K04 plotted with your data, BLUE dots are at 11 psi atmospheric pressure (~8500ft):


Same data, with the borgwarner s200sxe compressor map:

2006 Solstice #1458, Twincharged LE5/LEA, 5757+M62, Werks exh manifold, Tial bpv/wg, Cams, dual meth, 40 PSI, Kappadapt clutch hose/flywheel bolts/trans mount, Aisin AR5, Stage 5 clutch
Turbo-only power 444whp/422wtrq

2013 Cruze Missile, tuned, 42 lb, ZZP SRI/FMIC/DP/MP/CB, Kappadapt trans mount

Support Kappaperformance.com!!  Note: a couple huge corporations own and control several hundred of the top automotive enthusiast forums subsequently profiteering from these communities on the backs of volunteer moderators.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2020, 12:38:26 PM »
@Steelmesh

I see what you are saying. The exhaust and downpipe are going to have to be replaced as well as the whole intake side. Gotta make it easier for it to breathe if I want to get close to my goal.

I know the stock turbo is not going to be able to spin fast enough in order to make the pressure needed. While the engine is going to be able to handle the 28lb boost pressure because of the offset due to altitude the turbo is not going to be able to get me to those pressures without the possibility of turbo failure.

I have been looking  at EFR options. ZZPerformance is out of stock on everything. Werks racing carries with it a high price tag. are there any other companies that have put together a package that will get me to where I need to be?

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2020, 12:47:40 PM »
Quote
@LatinVenom
I am not interested in the powder coating at all but there is no offer of buying it unfinished. This is one of the reasons why I was leaning towards making some of the body bracing myself.
Because of what you have said about the brackets I am assuming that the photo that DDM has for the braces does not show all of the pieces. It looks like the brackets are L stock welded onto the end of a pipe with a hole drilled into it for a bolt to go through. It looks like the bars are pin straight as well.
But if you say that it is not cut and dry to make the things I will take your word for it. for the 125 I will probably just order them and spend the time to remove the finish.
The L pieces are the brackets and the wholes must be precisely align, so there is no play when the forces are applied as the chassis exerts a lot of force on them.
The other issue is the tube composition and the placement of the welds on the L brackets, so it does not interfere with other engine and radiator components. Also there was a lot of CAD time devoted to the project.
Look I am not trying to discourage you from building your own, just to make you aware of the challenges.
By the way the loss has always been determine because of multiple Dyno runs made back on 2007 to be at 17% and not 15%. By the way my Big Wheel can be tune to 27PSI, but Dave at DDM did not want to push my tune for street use.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2020, 04:04:18 PM »
I have been looking at the WERKSracing WR-3-EG. The thing is they do not tell you anything about the turbo, brand, model number specs. nothing. if it is the BorgWarner EFR 6758-G i(dual scroll).

I am thinking that the BorgWarner EFR 6758 is the way to go. while they say it is "bolt on" I am wondering what is needed to get the thing working. Because the 6758-G is priced at 1650.00 ish. I am trying to figure out what is given for the 1000 additional price tag.


@LatinVenom
I trust what you are saying and as I have stated I will probably just purchase the Venom Braces for the 125.00.

I know I stated a big wheel turbo before but since I have done quite a bit of reading about the K04 turbo the shaft is the limitation on them. The K04 has been proven to work up to 24psi boost without an issue. This would be the same number even if it is a big wheel. the big wheel improves the VE by quite a bit I am sure. and it is able to move more air. But that 24psi is going to remain the same. If I ran it up to 27-28psi this would be on the line. It would cause of the efficiency of the turbo to drop and also burn it up faster. because of the needed 28psi of boost to get to where I would like to see myself at I believe it is going to be best to replace the whole turbo with one that is rated for the shaft speeds and psi that I need to have.

And in all honesty since I am going to be replacing the downpipe, exhaust and charge tubes the cost difference between a big wheel turbo upgrade and buying the above mentioned turbo is only 300-400 bucks. that is worth not pushing the turbo to it's max or above which would lead to early failure.


Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2020, 04:14:42 PM »
The WR2 if my memory serves correctly it is a  BG 6258 but is NOT dual scroll, I believe the WR3 is the BG 6758 and it is also not dual scroll. The additional price is because they change the connection to be a like the OEM turbo, also they supply all the lines etc. so it is a complete setup.
This may help if DDM is still manufacturing this piece (conversion plate) that would on one side bolt to the BG turbo and the other side would be the OEM dual scroll gate.
This way you can buy a BG-6758 but you would still need all the other connections to make it work. At one time WERKS sold them separately, but I do not think they offer it any more.
 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 04:22:50 PM by LatinVenom »
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2020, 05:52:57 AM »
That is one hell of a price hike to go from the non dual scroll variant (price about 1200.00 - 1300.00) to 2600.00 for an adapter plate and a couple of coolant lines.

Dual scroll helps to make the turbo spool faster correct??. I believe this is what it does. and if it does I would like to keep that.
I have not been able to locate anyone that makes an adapter from the OE flange to a T4 dual scroll flange. IDK if an adapter can be made or not or if a whole new manifold would have to be made. On Monday I am going to locate a machine shop and bring them a rubbing of the OE flange and the dimensions of the flange on the 6758-G.

Making an adapter to go from the OE to a T4 flange without having to worry about that divider is fairly simple. Making one with the divider may be a different story. It is going to have to be a fairly substantial adapter for that divider not to crack. I have put some thought into this and I am willing to have the turbo move over to the passenger side of the car as needed. I have already started the process or re routing the electrical and I have deleted the power steering in the car 5 years ago so there is no more reservoir there. I will make a heat shield for the fuse box and the air inlet box for the HVAC if needed. I already drew up some designs for new fenders that are vented. They will be recessed vents and fairly large too.


Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2020, 02:26:49 PM »
Did you check to see if DDM is still carrying the conversion plate I mentioned on my last post?. Yes, the dual scroll makes the spooling faster. One thing though the GXP already has the Turbo on the passenger side, so not sure about your statement.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2020, 07:42:50 PM »
I know the turbo is on the passenger side. There is a divider that separates the exhaust cylinders 1, 3 are on one side and 2, 4 (I think it's those cylinder numbers) are on the other. The divider has been known to crack on the solstice manifold, Tho GM states it doesn't effect anything which I do not believe for a single second.

This divider goes all the way into the turbo. I would have to do some reading again to explain the purpose for it. But it what makes a dual scroll work. So it has to be there. This divider is pretty thin. So in order to make an adapter that would not have that divider crack it going to make the adapter pretty thick. this is going to move the turbo to the passenger side of the car more. If I had to take a guess I would day that the adapter would need to be somewhere around 2 inches thick at a minimum in order for it to be reliable. If the divider in the adapter were to crack and break off say bye bye to the turbo.

here is a webpage that shows the divider I am talking about. You can see it on the flange of the turbo.
https://xsboostturbochargers.com/collections/pontiac


It look like DDM has dropped most of the turbo upgrade bits and pieces from their line. There isn't much on their website for those kinds of things.

Offline wspohn

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2020, 12:01:45 PM »
Have you seen a typical crack in the casting?  It doesn't open up and doesn't flow anything, so won't affect turbo operation unless a chunk actually fell out and I have never heard of that happening.
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Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2020, 12:22:45 PM »
@wsphon

Where there is a crack there has to be some kind of leakage. It is probably not enough to  do anything appreciable maybe.. I have seen images of the crack but other then that I have not done a huge amount of research into it.

Over the weekend I contacted a shop in Minnesota that makes custom headers and custom headers for turbos. They specialize in GM v8's But they do work on everything else. Their photo gallery is quite impressive so I sent them an e-mail inquiring about making an adapter to mate the OE flange to the BorgWarner  EFR 6758-G flange. the 6758-G flange is a T4 flange but it has the divider in it because the turbo is a dual scroll like the OE turbo is. My concern with the crack on the OE manifold would be the cracking of the divider in an adapter due to it being a smallish piece of metal. They replied to my inquiry this morning asking for some images and more information which I gave them. They sound pretty interested in possibly making the adapter if it can be done.

I would think that there would be a few people that might be interested in running the same turbo to retain the dual scroll. I think it would be the best turbo to use as a single turbo setup. You get the power but retain the fast spooling as seen with the factory turbo.

The traction control is going to have to work overtime with this turbo installed  :cool:

spooling speed is important to me because of the roads in my area. Very curvy and a lot of the corners speed posted at 20-30 mph (not the speed I actually go) I drive really aggressive as out cop population is 2 for an area of 12 square miles. the average house hold size is 2.8 people and there are 9000 residents. It is a community of mostly 40 somethings with no kids. The low number of children is because there is really nothing to do up here. It's a 20 minute drive for me to get to the gas station. It is actually a really enjoyable place to drive for the most part. And the opportunity to open the car up a bit is an every day occurrence.


If an adapter is a no go I may run the Hahn Racecraft upgrade. I am going to call them in a little bit and see what kind of information they would be willing to provide me.


I have left 2 messages with RPM motorsports and still no return phone call. I wonder if they are still in business???
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 12:32:49 PM by kgschlosser »

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2020, 06:02:26 PM »
I know DDM does not do any more turbo setups but a phone call to see if they have an adapter left over, or maybe the vendor that fabricated it, just a thought.
I have had my large wheel turbo for a good 13 years and everything still performs as when it was installed.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2020, 10:59:59 PM »
@LatinVenom

I will keep that in mind. I am going to wait and see what the custom header place come up with. I called Hahn Racecraft today and the girl (receptionist I believe) that answered the phone said it was her first day working there and would not be able to answer my questions. She said she would see if Bill was available to answer my questions I left my name and number with her.. and I never got a return phone call. He could have been super busy. will see what happens tomorrow. If I do not hear anything by 2PM my time which is 4PM there I will call them again.

I am thinking about giving BorgWarner a call to see if I can get the schematics for the OE flange and also the flange on the EFR turbo. If I can get those I can do some CAD work and come up with an adapter. The only thing is I am not sure of is how that divider is going to react because of expansion and contraction under pressure and heat. each side of that divider is going to be seeing pressure when the other side is not. The other challenging thing is that the divider on the OE flange is not straight it is curved. I am assuming this curve is to add strength. the one of the EFR turbo is straight but it looks to be thicker so that would also have to be accounted for.

The largest expense with having something like this made is it being designed in a CAD program. I have the CAD knowledge and could draw it and generate the G-Code needed for a CNC machine. It is not something that I want to do trial and error. it would be really expensive if I blow up a turbo each time I get a failure. This is the reason why I went to a shop that focuses on headers. They would be the ones that would have the most knowledge about the pressures and heat involved. Now the turbo's throw in another layer of complexities. This shop specializes in custom turbo headers, so I am thinking they are going to have the needed knowledge to manufacture a proper adapter right out of the gate. Their average charge for a custom header for a 4 cylinder is about 1100 dollars. They did not specify whether or not it was a turbo header or not.

I just read a GREAT write up on what dual scroll does. The concept is actually really simple.

https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-scroll-vs-single-scroll-turbo-test-the-great-divide/

The sole purpose to it is to separate the cylinders that have their exhaust valves open at the same time. while one cylinder is pushing exhaust out there is always another that is in the process of closing. so you get exhaust into the cylinder that is closing. This reduces the exhaust pressure and also "dilutes" the charge that is going to be made in the cylinder that was closing the valve.

by separating those cylinders you get additional exhaust PSI and a better detonation. This causes higher HP and also spools the turbo a lot quicker.

That write up shows dyno plots and also explains the setup and the tests they ran. One of the tests they ran was starting at 3000 RPM in 3rd gear with the turbo at 2psi of boost. They went WOT and timed how long it took the turbo to get to full boost (30 psi). single scroll was 4.370 seconds. and dual scroll was 3.7 seconds. That is more then a half a second difference. pretty substantial difference.

If running a twin turbo setup you would put the cylinders that do not share open exhaust valves on each of the turbos. Same principal just done with a single turbo.






Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2020, 06:39:25 AM »
Y'all need to go watch Turbo Yoda explain that most "complex" turbos are designed for fuel efficiency/emissions/economy of manufacture, not power.

I'll try and dig up the link after work.

EDIT: Link:
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 03:18:33 PM by Uranium-238 »
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Offline kgschlosser

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Re: Upgrade Suggestions
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2020, 07:15:16 PM »
good deal. I found someone that will make the adapter. I don't know what the price is just yet. but I got past the first hurdle of locating someone.


 

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