Author Topic: Upgrades for Autocross... (Read 15609 times)

Uranium-238 · « **on:** July 20, 2009, 03:01:34 PM »

After Saturday's autocross, I've found a few things on the car that need immediate attention.

Obviously, the first thing is tires. The stock ones suck, and there's no way around it. Hoosier A6's, R888's, and other good A/X only type tires are just too much expensive for me to justify purchasing at my skill level. I've still got plenty to learn before I will feel the need to "real" tires. Regardless, I still need a set of all-season tires. Is it possible there are all season tires that outperform the stock Badyears in every way? If anyone knows of any I'd love to hear about them.

Goat menioned Falkens new all-season tires, and they sound pretty good, but they're so new we don't know a whole lot about them yet.

Next, I think I boiled my brake fluid. I thought I was getting brake fade, but at the time I thought I was just imagining it. An inspection of the engine compartment once I got home showed that the brake fluid resovior seems to have overflowed. It's filled to a normal level, so my only guess is it got hot enough to expand enough to overlfow or boiled. I had the same thing happen once after I gave the brakes a really heavy working trying to find stopping distances.

So, is my assumption about the overflow's cause correct? What type of brake fluid should I switch to?

Obviously, I want an alignment before the August 1st event. Right now I'm planning on getting Ben's "BOK" alignment, it'll either be a great place to stay or a good starting point for furthe tweaks.

I may end up with a few other things to add to this list, I'm still checking out the car.

snaponbob · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:31:26 PM »

Check your PM.

Ben L · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:17:17 PM »

C'mon Bob!

The rest of us are interested in what you have to say, too. Don't freeze us out. No fair the two of yuz having an information performance oriented discussion off line.

Caring means sharing . . . .

Wilwood or Motul DOT 3 or 4 is good brake fluid with a high boiling point. We run the Willwood juice in the coupe.

Tires. Ah. A paradox. I continue to believe that you really do not need All Seasons in the post global warming DC Metro area. The compromise is just too great. It would just be sad to see them on your car. On the few days when there is ice and snow on the road, you are unlikely to drive the Redline. Or just keep the Badyears and have them mounted in the five weeks or so of winter we are now seeing around here.

If you are not going to buy a set of dedicated race rubber, then very high quality "extreme" or "maximum" "performance" summer tires are the way to go.

Look for something in the 200 treadwear territory with silica compound, and a good stiff carcass. As I've said ad naseum, I like my Direzza Star Specs a lot. Bridgestone RE-11s and Toyo Proxes R1Rs are two others I'd take a long look at.

Now, spill it. What arcane knowledge did Bob impart in your off line comms.? He didn't say anything bad about me, did he? Will I ever live down the camber plates?

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:06:30 PM »

In response to his PM, I asked him to reiterate everything here for all to see. Basically, he suggested DOT 4 brake fluid, and if I was to look at reducing fade further some aftermarket brake pads.

For a top-of-the line summer tire, the Dunlops still top my "wanted" list. Very highly rated, and they're the cheapest option to boot.

How well do they resist hydroplaning compared to the stockers? I had a rather hair raising drive home today in the rain, hydroplaning just isn't cool. It was so bad in fact that I'm considering postponing getting the Westers tune in favor of new shoes...

As for running them in the winter, if they do well in the rain I'd probably consider doing just that. If it's snowing or icy out I'm staying home. Plus, at that price who cares about the extra treadwear?

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:31:04 PM »

OK, after doing a little research, I think I'm going to go with the Wilwood High-Temp 570 fluid. Wet boiling point is higher than the dry boiling point of any of the DOT fluids. (!!!) And at $5/12 oz it's not terribly expensive either.

Critterman · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:22:52 PM »

I got some blue juice from DDM a supporting vendor on this site along with Hawk pads. You might want to give them a call.

Ben L · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:49:57 PM »

I would rate the Dunlops as good wets. They have a tread pattern that squishes out a lot of water. The compound stays stuck on wet pavement pretty well.

I got a terrifying lesson in their wet weather driving back from a hearing in Pittsburgh in May on the PA turnpike in the mountains at night in an extreme thunderstorm and monsoon like rain. This is right after I put the BC Racing coliovers on. It was coming down hard that I could hear and feel the rockers on my lowered car skimming through built up rainwater that could not drain off the fast enough to keep up, downhill on a 4% mountain grade! Pitch black and foggy to boot, intermittently lit up with huge nasty glaring bolts of destructive lightning.

I can't say that I did not have a couple of sphincter puckering hydroplane moments, but the fact that I made it alive to the next exit at Bedford to wait it out in a cheesy truckstop motel is a testament to the Dunlops' performance. And here I am to tell the tale.

snaponbob · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:58:49 PM »

No freezing. But since 238 sent a boat load of money via PayPal ......... well you get the picture.

Here is what I sent him -- (with some edits

)

The brakes will easily get over the boiling point of DOT3, so your assessment is probably correct. DOT 4 will raise the boiling level at least 100-150 degrees. The other fade point is the stock pads. They WILL cook, especially the fronts (thanks GM for the excessive front bias), and eventually crumble! (Been there, seen that.) If you choose Hawk HPS, you really need to turn your disks as the pads will not properly bed in otherwise (verified by Hawk). (Again, been there, seen that.) Hawk Plus pads will be noisy, so you may not like the racket, but BOY will they grip. There are some notes on the Solstice forum about some upgrade pads that will work on the Kappas, but a search will be needed. Hawk HPS's in front with Hawk Plus in back is not too noisy, and gives the rear some much needed extra stopping power to better balance the fore/aft brake balance.

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:28:51 PM »

Quote from: Critterman on July 20, 2009, 07:22:52 PM

I got some blue juice from DDM a supporting vendor on this site along with Hawk pads. You might want to give them a call.

They sell the Willwood brake fluid as well, albeit at a higher price. However, I know with them I won't get screwed with a nutso S&H fee. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow.

Quote from: Ben L on July 20, 2009, 07:49:57 PM

I would rate the Dunlops as good wets. They have a tread pattern that squishes out a lot of water. The compound stays stuck on wet pavement pretty well.

I got a terrifying lesson in their wet weather driving back from a hearing in Pittsburgh in May on the PA turnpike in the mountains at night in an extreme thunderstorm and monsoon like rain. This is right after I put the BC Racing coliovers on. It was coming down hard that I could hear and feel the rockers on my lowered car skimming through built up rainwater that could not drain off the fast enough to keep up, downhill on a 4% mountain grade! Pitch black and foggy to boot, intermittently lit up with huge nasty glaring bolts of destructive lightning.

I can't say that I did not have a couple of sphincter puckering hydroplane moments, but the fact that I made it alive to the next exit at Bedford to wait it out in a cheesy truckstop motel is a testament to the Dunlops' performance. And here I am to tell the tale.

Well, any tire will hydroplane.

I'm thinking wait for the tune, and upgrade my tires, brake fluid and brake pads. That should hold me till the season's out, and I can worry about a tune and any other details over the winter. Might spring for a DDM Probeam as well.

Quote from: snaponbob on July 20, 2009, 07:58:49 PM

The brakes will easily get over the boiling point of DOT3, so your assessment is probably correct. DOT 4 will raise the boiling level at least 100-150 degrees. The other fade point is the stock pads. They WILL cook, especially the fronts (thanks GM for the excessive front bias), and eventually crumble! (Been there, seen that.) If you choose Hawk HPS, you really need to turn your disks as the pads will not properly bed in otherwise (verified by Hawk). (Again, been there, seen that.) Hawk Plus pads will be noisy, so you may not like the racket, but BOY will they grip. There are some notes on the Solstice forum about some upgrade pads that will work on the Kappas, but a search will be needed. Hawk HPS's in front with Hawk Plus in back is not too noisy, and gives the rear some much needed extra stopping power to better balance the fore/aft brake balance.

Noise doesn't bother me. I'm also going to talk brake pads with DDM when I try an give them a call tomorrow.

As for changing the front/rear balance, does anyone know what the stock front/rear split is? I tend to experiment using Forza 2, and they have the car stock with a 50/50 brake balance.

For those who don't know, it's a racing sim for the xbox 360. Sure, it's not real life, but it's good for seeing how different suspension setups should affect the feel of the car, tire wear, etc.

Critterman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:31:00 PM »

Snapon will know but I think it is close to 60/40

snaponbob · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:49:51 PM »

Quote from: Critterman on July 20, 2009, 09:31:00 PM

Snapon will know but I think it is close to 60/40

Thanks for the compliment (I think), but without (uh oh) proper test equipment (that I don't have or want), it is just guess work. The 60/40 may be too conservative a guess. Once the weight has transferred forward it would be far to assume it may be more. GM has always biased the handling towards understeer (even Z06's are so blessed) the brakes are heavily front biased on rear drivers. The front wheel drivers are like that as well, but THAT makes more sense. Mike (Jr.) Johnson is and Evo instructor and perennial go faster in A/SP. His Z06 is set up with stock from Z06 front pads and Hawk Plus pads in the rear to counteract the brake bias. He suggested it would help the Kappas, it was tried, and it helped. Still may be too biased to the front, but much better.

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:58:27 PM »

I'll look into the whole change the brake bias with different pads thing. I'm sure DDM will have some input for that as well.

Next event is August 1st, and at the least I'd like to have the Wilwood brake fluid and an alignment done in time for that. I don't want to have a mess under the hood to clean up again...

Note: Astonishingly, the spilled brake fluid did NOT strip the paint off of the master brake cylinder. Really makes me wonder about that brake fluid...

Also, just ordered the Solstice Performance Handbook from crate engine depot. Should have some good info.

Treeman · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:16:50 PM »

Just before the 4th I was out for a hot drive one night and got into brake fade. When I came to stop sign I smelled HOT brakes. I drove more sedately for a while to cool them off. So your thoughts of fluid and brakes (at least pads) is a good one. Boy - can easily get into the money here fast!

I am also with you 238 on the priorities. I am focusing on suspension and maybe brakes before power. If I go go go I want to turn turn turn and stop stop stop!!

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:21:09 PM »

Quote from: Treeman on July 20, 2009, 10:16:50 PM

I am also with you 238 on the priorities. I am focusing on suspension and maybe brakes before power. If I go go go I want to turn turn turn and stop stop stop!!

If I'm cooking the brakes that good with stock power, I'd be guaranteed to have it happen more often with a tune. I'm thinking brakes/tires/alignment/pads/ZOK bar being my first set of mods. (already did the ZOK bar.) Next would be a tune, then shocks/whatever. I'll probably make this all up as I go along anyway...

snaponbob · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:09:26 PM »

Quote from: Uranium-238 on July 20, 2009, 10:21:09 PM

If I'm cooking the brakes that good with stock power, I'd be guaranteed to have it happen more often with a tune. I'm thinking brakes/tires/alignment/pads/ZOK bar being my first set of mods. (already did the ZOK bar.) Next would be a tune, then shocks/whatever. I'll probably make this all up as I go along anyway...

Fun, ain't it?

kennysabarese · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:17:24 PM »

the goodyears are not that bad considering what most people who drive this car do, cruise around with the top down and gun it once in a while... but nonetheless... i just posted a link to a car and driver review of a bunch of tires, http://KappaPerformance.com/index.php?topic=2399.msg27993#msg27993 the dunlops came in #1 and they have excellent wet traction, #3 where some kumho autox tires that are amazing dry and crappy wet, for like 120 bucks each (for 17's, add ~$50 for 18's)

if you daily drive the sky the dulops are prolly your best bet, discount tire direct highly recommends them, and if you want get some light 17" wheels, sell the good years and put narrow snowtires on the 18's. the 17" tires are 50 bucks cheaper each than the 18's the wheels available are lighter, and no tire roll shouldn't be a problem.

if you must have 18's then do it the opposite, get snowtires for winter and put the direzzas on the 18's

i don't see why people aren't moving to smaller wheels for weight savings, i haven't heard of anyone who has done so, is there any problem with 17's?

snaponbob · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2009, 08:38:57 AM »

Quote from: kennysabarese on July 20, 2009, 11:17:24 PM

i don't see why people aren't moving to smaller wheels for weight savings, i haven't heard of anyone who has done so, is there any problem with 17's?

The Kappas have an unusual (for American and Asian cars) bolt pattern, and an even less common wheel offset. There this is the potential clearance challenges for the brakes. negative gearing effects, and loss of fuel mileage. So, yes there are problems with 17's.

kennysabarese · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:58:37 AM »

Quote from: snaponbob on July 21, 2009, 08:38:57 AM

The Kappas have an unusual (for American and Asian cars) bolt pattern, and an even less common wheel offset. There this is the potential clearance challenges for the brakes. negative gearing effects, and loss of fuel mileage. So, yes there are problems with 17's.

damn GM

lots of folks have gotten 17s for snow tires. Can't u just get a taller tire and end up with the same diameter?

snaponbob · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:20:46 AM »

Quote from: kennysabarese on July 21, 2009, 10:58:37 AM

damn GM

lots of folks have gotten 17s for snow tires. Can't u just get a taller tire and end up with the same diameter?

Sure, I guess so. With a 12 year old van available, if the weather gets that bad here, the Sky stays indoors. As low as it sits now, it could almost high center on a shadow !!!!!!! If I'm not mistaken, 238 is trying avoid buying extra rims. If not, "18" take offs are fairly cheap, all seasons could go on them and some 140 rated summer tires could be street and race rubber.

kennysabarese · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:31:49 PM »

Apologies for hijacking. But I personally have been cuirious if smaller wheels are an option. Maybe a wheel size that has more tires available to it and cheaper tires would help change uraniums and others decision on a strategy

if I could find cheaper tires to shred at the track or if track tires were a lot cheaper in smaller sizes I'd go for a wheel to fit them.

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:19:35 PM »

OK, just got off the phone with DDM. Sounds like either the Wilwood 750 or the ATE superblue fluids would be fine. I went with the ATE fluid since flushing the system with it will be easier.

Still researching brake pads.

Treeman · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:12:47 PM »

If you can wait a little bit for the brakes, also check out SolsticeSport. Looks like they are about to release some good stuff (think Goat has been talking about this). I've been eyeing the Stage 1 with the BP-20 pads.

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:39:07 PM »

Quote from: Treeman on July 21, 2009, 04:12:47 PM

If you can wait a little bit for the brakes, also check out SolsticeSport. Looks like they are about to release some good stuff (think Goat has been talking about this). I've been eyeing the Stage 1 with the BP-20 pads.

I've been keeping an eye on their brake kits. While it's something I'm likely to consider down the road, right now the stock brakes still serve their purpose.

Uranium-238 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 07:23:07 AM »

Just ordered brake pads. SnaponBob and I have been bantering back and forth in PM about brake pads. In the end, I went with some EBC Yellowstuff brake pads on all four wheels. They're kevlar brakes, so they should perform like the Hawk Plus pads, minus the rotor wear.

They're backordered however, and should be in in early August.

kennysabarese · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2009, 07:45:24 AM »

kevlar brake pads... never heard of them... sounds interesting

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Author Topic: Upgrades for Autocross... (Read 15609 times)

Ben L

Ben L