Topic: Upgrades for Autocross...

[Uranium-238]

According to EBC, they're capable of putting up with the abuse of track use, yet are still suitable for daily driver duties.

http://www.ebcbrakes.com

[Kelu]

great, I have available EBC pads in my country, I trust your decision, when will be about to change my own I will go with EBC Yellowstuff.

Thanks for sharing guys.

[Ben L]

U-238, I have some direct relevant experience about your choices.   

On my FFR Cobra Roadster (since replaced by the FFR Coupe) I ran EBC Yellowstuffs on the rear and stock PBR pads on the front in an attempt to correct a front brake bias issue (fronts would lock before rears).  I found the Yellowstuffs very hard on the rotors. 

I ran them for one autox season, and told the guy I sold the car to that he ought to have the rotors turned or replaced.  Our cars are much heavier than the Cobras, and the brakes generally have to work harder, so I expect that trait to be worse on the Kappas.

I ran Hawk HPS at all four corners the year before, and they were dusty, but not as hard on the rotors as the Yellowstuffs.

EBC Yellowstuffs are pretty abrasive, in my opinion, despite what the marketing literature says.  But they can take the heat. So they have that going for them.

Just one more opinion, but one forged in the crucible of real world experience.

[snaponbob]

My Redline has HPS front and Plus rear to fight the GM front brake bias. I was running stock front pads with the Plus rear, which produced exactly the balance I wanted --- unit the heat built up in the front. Eventually the stock front pads literally started to crumble. The HPS pads ARE easy on the disks while there is some modest wear in back from the Plus pads. When speaking with EBC yesterday they asserted that the Kevlar pads are easier on disks than metallics (Hawk Plus, D60's, etc.) so I was going with what I was told. Hopefully, Ben, your situation was somewhat unique, but probably not. Most European brake systems often show nearly equally pad and rotor wear as brake performance comes with a cost. The GOOD news is that Kappa disks are about as cheap as everybody elses are.

238, when you get them, let us know what the bed in procedure is in the instructions.

[Uranium-238]

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that no high-temp brake bad is going to be real easy on the rotors...

We'll see how they do. Also, since they're backordered, I've got some time to cancel the order if something better presents itself. Ben, what's your take on how the HPS pads perform?

As for installation instructions, here they are, courtesy of Summit Racing.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/ebc-ebc_fitting_instructions.pdf

[Treeman]

Some of you folks that have been around awhile may know this but I just saw this for the first time and thought the newer ones (like me) should see it in this thread.

http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f48/axers-racers-very-important-check-hub-bolts-if-driven-hard-35030/

[elff]

That's a common thing for us 4Wheelers.
37" tires tend to put some strain on the hub.  
Jack it up, grab the tire at 12 and 6 O'Clock and see if there is play.

It would be really nice if the SCCA went back and implemented some Rules that made F-Ing Sense.
I find it highly annoying that there literally is no class that is actually stock.
I also find it highly annoying that mods that will bump you to BSP, will still have you less competitive than an A-Stock kappa that has Hoosiers.

The SCCA really needs to introduce classes that are Non Modified Classes, hence the term stock
and limit the cars to the stock suspension and stock-like tires vs R-Comps.
Otherwise, to be competitive in what they call stock, you need to drop close to $3000 for R-Comps and better shocks.
How the Fawk are R-Comps considered stock.
What makes it even more stupid is the fact that you can run the widest R-Comps that will fit on your car, but god forbid you change your rim size.  There should be no way in hell that a car running a stock class would need to be trailored to the event.
 

[Uranium-238]

 
That's why I'm not running SCCA. To me, their rules make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and for many of the reasons you mentioned.

That's what I'm planning on running CDC. They've got an indexing system that looks a little more fair on paper.

Some of you folks that have been around awhile may know this but I just saw this for the first time and thought the newer ones (like me) should see it in this thread.

http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f48/axers-racers-very-important-check-hub-bolts-if-driven-hard-35030/

Hadn't seen that, thanks.

[elff]

Do you have more information on the CDC stuff?
I wonder if they run that around my area?

I'm actually done with the SCCA as well.  It's totally stupid.

[snaponbob]

Elff, you are trying to make sense of what the SCCA does and thinks. It's even WORSE hearing the rationale for they do and think. There is no value in doing a line by line response, because we are actually just about in lock step on all but "strictly stock" because there really ARE very reasonable issues with implementation. But you are dead on target about the A6s (maybe not so much on SIZES) but the SCCA just about NEVER does a "take back". Even worse is that in ST classes (a prep level ABOVE Stock) on is limited to 140 wear tires whereas the A6s are FORTY wear rated. Oh well.

The loose hub issue is UNcommon on street cars, but certainly is worth keeping tabs on with Kappas in Solo. Fortunately we don't have THIS mess to deal with !!! http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/370348/369176/ShowThread.aspx#369176 

[Uranium-238]

I think more CDC events would be a hike for you.

http://www.capitaldrivingclub.com/

That being said, it would be cool if you could make some of their events. The more Kappas the better!

[kennysabarese]

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that no high-temp brake bad is going to be real easy on the rotors...

Well dude, something has to wear out, either the pads or the rotors, just pick one

[Uranium-238]

I'm thinking if the rotors wear eventually I can use it as an excuse to get the slotted ones DDM offers. 

I went ahead and read some more reviews of these pads, and quite a few report minimal to no rotor wear. Then again, I have no idea how hard these people are on there brakes.

I guess I'm just going to have to find out for myself.

[lil goat]

I think you have to have two sets of wheels and tires around here, why? Well I don't drive as well as Ben, second it's not the ice and snow that bother my tires, it's the cold. When it gets below 50 they get hard as rocks, the slide and spin easily. This may not be the case with the Dunlops or others but it is sure true of the Bridgestones, my son has the same issue with his 760's as I do with my Re-01's. Maybe it is the very stiff sidewalls of the Bridgstones, but they really suck when it gets cold.

Brakes, it's all about money. There are lots of options some just cost more than others, the Rotora front brake kit is a mere $2000 that's just the front! I will no way be able to afford the Stage III SS brakes but I will be a "tester" and get a little better deal, at full price they will be cheaper than the Rotora and will be all 4 with bigger 13" slotted discs.

[Ben L]

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that no high-temp brake bad is going to be real easy on the rotors...

We'll see how they do. Also, since they're backordered, I've got some time to cancel the order if something better presents itself. Ben, what's your take on how the HPS pads perform?

As for installation instructions, here they are, courtesy of Summit Racing.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/ebc-ebc_fitting_instructions.pdf

The Hawk HPS pads were fine performers on the street and in autocross duty in the Cobra, but they are dusty as hell.  They were not so good in track use in my old blown 2003 Mach 1 Mustang.  By the middle of the second session on Summit Point Main, they were fading, but that car was heavy, fast (456 rwhp and peak torque of 450 ft. lbs at 2400 rpm and flat as a pancake all the way to redline!) and had huge SSBC calipers and rotors.

I think you all have it right.  There is no such thing as a truly rotor friendly high performance brake pad that will do it all. 

I pass along what a track instructor told me.  You have to look at rotors as consumables.  That perspective liberates you to select the pad that works the best in what you actually do in the car.  For a streetfighter/autocrosser, you need good "woah" across a wide range of cold to hot temps.  That rules out truly high-temp metallic or ceramic compound track pads, that only get grippy when real hot.

If rotor wear is not a consideration, then Yellowstuffs perform admirably by those measures.  (I am sure others have posted that they do not eat rotors, but I know what my brand new Cobra rotors looked like after one season of driving to events and running in them.

Hawk HPSs will do the job too, and perform across a wide temp range, but maybe a tick or two less well than the EBC's

There is no such thing as a free lunch.  As Bob points out, rotors are relatively cheap and available for our cars.  Good brakes make a huge difference in how deep and fast you can enter corners, so it is important.

Just decide what the priority is, and go for it.

[Ben L]

I think you have to have two sets of wheels and tires around here, why? Well I don't drive as well as Ben, second it's not the ice and snow that bother my tires, it's the cold. When it gets below 50 they get hard as rocks, the slide and spin easily. This may not be the case with the Dunlops or others but it is sure true of the Bridgestones, my son has the same issue with his 760's as I do with my Re-01's. Maybe it is the very stiff sidewalls of the Bridgstones, but they really suck when it gets cold.

Brakes, it's all about money. There are lots of options some just cost more than others, the Rotora front brake kit is a mere $2000 that's just the front! I will no way be able to afford the Stage III SS brakes but I will be a "tester" and get a little better deal, at full price they will be cheaper than the Rotora and will be all 4 with bigger 13" slotted discs.

You are too kind, Goat.  You drive great.  I saw what you had side by side on 211 that time.  But you actually had more even yet.  I figure you were just being nice and letting me by.  I got so excited I lost the entire column trying to calm down and rejoin the group.

Anyway, there is no doubt that the Dunlops get hard and lose traction when the mercury dips below 35.  I just adjust my driving accordingly.  Less Gs in turns, keep the car straight under braking, and less aggressive application of throttle. Even when backing off like that, I still feel safer and more confident on them than on the stock F1s which, well, they are just kind of all over the place and unpredictable, I guess, under any conditions.

I think the hot ticket on brakes is the SolSport Wilwood setup.  But its spendy.  Its no accident that, of all the braking systems under the sun, we picked six jug Wilwoods for the front and twin piston Wilwoods for the rear of the Bottom Dollar Coupe.  With slotted cryo rotors.  Wilwood pads, too.

I can say that I am not disappointed after the third competitive outing on them. 

This weekend, the granddaddy of long circuit autocross -- Cumberland Airport.

That is holy ground, and the most laid back fun high speed nut clutching autocrossing there is.  Basically, you charge up and down an airport runway, and the fast guys see third and up to 80 mph entering the showcase "kink" where lifting often means spinning.  It is the stomping ground of many fast Cobras, Vettes, Camaros, Lotus Sevens, open wheel race cars, and other exotica, but also home to stock Caprices, Luminas and everything else.

There is a picnic Saturday night between races at the beautiful farm of a fanatic vintage Corvette collector, where can be seen dozens of rare or one of a kind Chebbies.

CDC is the kiddie pool compared to Cumberland.  But they are salty, funny, not take yourself too seriously fun guys, and even they they go through the motions of classing the cars, raw times rule, and it is the opposite of SCCA in the uptight department. 

http://www.nationalroadrally.com/

[snaponbob]

To add MORE ripples to the water, there was a long and informative conversation with Cobalt. REAL interesting. http://www.cobaltfriction.com/

[Ben L]

To add MORE ripples to the water, there was a long and informative conversation with Cobalt. REAL interesting. http://www.cobaltfriction.com/

Cool!!  More choices. . . .  Which compounds were discussed for the Kappa?

[Uranium-238]

Yeah, don't just leave us hanging like that. Fill us in!

[snaponbob]

Cool!!  More choices. . . .  Which compounds were discussed for the Kappa?

Which compounds? ALL of them. It would seem ALL of them are streetable. They actually will produce the pads to order in our case. In the pdf catalog there are NO Saturn (I own SUCH an orphan  ) listings, and for Pontiac is says to call for applications. Bottom line, ALL their pads require no warm up !! The interesting aspect of their pads is how their different pads react to the WAY the driver applied the brakes and the actual feel one may want. They told me that their pads actually "lay down" a layer of their own material on the disk that the pads interact with !!!!!!!! TOO quick and hard an application of the pedal ("bashing" the pedal) can actually REMOVE the working layer from the disk. One would not lose much braking acting, but the pads would then get busy reapplying the working layer to the disks. (Hopefully, I am conveying what was explained well enough.) Some local road race "go fasters" really like them. The pad material is a proprietary material that they came up with. Naturally, they are as proud of their stuff as Hawk and EBC are or their respective products. Hey, WTH, visit their web site, and/or call THEM. HAWK, Cobalt, EBC --    NO MORE phone calls. Promise.

[Uranium-238]

Yeah I noticed what you mentioned about Saturn and Pontiac. I'm a bit of a brake masher, so unless A/X cures me of that these may not be the pads for me.

Did they mention what the price would be for a Kappa?

And on a totally unrelated note, Ben, do you know anything about when any A/X schools might take place this year? I've been keeping an eye on the SCCA region's schedule, and it looks like they only do it during the spring...

[snaponbob]

Depending on which compound, about twice the money than the Hawks and EBC's. The guy at Cobalt implied that the pedal "smashing" would certainly be an issue on a road course, but probably not such a big deal in solo due to our short runs and far lower speeds.

My guess is with a slight adjustment in brake action on the driver's part, it wouldn't be such an issue. Assuming that they would work as well as was implied, less aggressive braking may become a "natural" adjustment. Each car I have raced has had dramatically different brakes (my G/S 93 Probe GT almost DIDN'T have brakes !!!!!!) and each meant different application. (You wouldn't drive another car the way you drive you Kappa, would you??) HTH.

[Uranium-238]

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the EBC's for now. If they end up wearing too much the Hawk's will be next.

On the tire front, I just checked the tires on my car, and it's worse than I thought. New tires are a must, they don't have much life left before the wear indicators are flush with the treads...

[snaponbob]

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the EBC's for now. If they end up wearing too much the Hawk's will be next.

On the tire front, I just checked the tires on my car, and it's worse than I thought. New tires are a must, they don't have much life left before the wear indicators are flush with the treads...

PM sent - this is for 238