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Author Topic: Why 29 psi?  (Read 13746 times)

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Offline Treeman

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Why 29 psi?
« on: August 29, 2009, 03:30:35 PM »
I inflated my tires (stock GS2s) to 40 psi this morning before driving to the autocross.  Took a few winding roads (gently) to get used to the feel before I got there.  I liked  it!  For the road!  I am thinking of leaving the pressures up there - is there any reason why not?  Bumps hit a little harder but not given how soft the suspension is anyway.  No more tire squeal!!!  Much better road feel!!  So why 29?   :huh:
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Offline LiquidPT

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 04:11:19 PM »
I inflated my tires (stock GS2s) to 40 psi this morning before driving to the autocross.  Took a few winding roads (gently) to get used to the feel before I got there.  I liked  it!  For the road!  I am thinking of leaving the pressures up there - is there any reason why not?  Bumps hit a little harder but not given how soft the suspension is anyway.  No more tire squeal!!!  Much better road feel!!  So why 29?   :huh:

I'm assuming at that pressure that you're really only getting traction on the center of the tire, not the whole width. 40 seems pretty high.
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Offline Treeman

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 04:18:04 PM »
Tire shows evidence of wear all the across.
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 04:20:55 PM »
GM set the pressure to give you the best ride and handling for the platform.  That is why.    AutoX tend to increase the pressure, Drag Racing, decrease pressure.

Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 04:25:50 PM »
Whats the tire manufacturer's rated pressure for the tire?  Remember all those Ford Explorers that were having tire failures, that was because Ford said one number and Firestone said another.  If you exceed the tire's number then you really will risk tire failure.  If you exceed GM's number you run the risk of GM saying you voided the warranty also if there is an accident and some ambulance chaser finds out you might find your auto insurance company saying your on your own.

Remember tire pressures change with the temperature changes of the tire and 40 psi cold may be 45 to 50 once the tire temp is up to normal.  On my car I run at 29-30 and my TPMS will show a gain of about 3-4 psi after I have been driving for a while.  If I really am pushing it in turns and such the pressure gain will be more.  I have also noticed that if one side of the car is in the sun and the other is in a shadow there will be a few psi difference between the two sides.  That TPMS that I added is a pretty nice tool to have.

Another thing to consider is if you are over inflated you will wear out the inside of the tire tread before the outside edges and shorten tire life.  Of course if you are still running the stock tires this may not be a bad thing because then you can get some better tires.
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Offline Treeman

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 04:34:26 PM »
So the stock tire has a maximum pressure of 44.  The issue with the Explorers was UNDERinflation - an entirely different issue.  And the pressure ratings and recommendations are COLD pressures - so they expect the pressures to go up with use. 
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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 06:22:06 PM »
I think you can run it anywhere South of the max pressure rating.  That's why they give it to you cold.  But do expect to have it creep up a couple pounds and maybe more in spirited driving.

If you can handle the stiffness, four pounds under max pressure does not sound horrible.  Per Joe's comment, I bet the recommendation has more to do with "ride" than it does "handling," like everything else factory.

Offline elff

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 06:46:06 PM »
I tend to run mine at 35psi for the street and bumped them to 40 for AutoX.
The reason for the higher pressure in AutoX is to prevent the tire from rolling over during all the hard cornering.  You can actually see the wear extend to the sidewall if your not high enough.   You will also hear it and the car will plow more.

I've played with a bunch of different pressures and settled on 35 because it where my tires tend to grip better and don't squeal as much.  This is for the Stock Goodyear GS2's   
It will differ for people, tires, and vehicle.  IE: take my results with a grain of salt as they might not work as good for the next person.


Offline snaponbob

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 07:20:47 PM »
Most of the above are on point. So, some of what I'll respond with may be repetitive.
1) The auto manufacturer establishes the normal pressure as a COLD setting. The recommended pressure is for JUST THE TIRES THAT CAME ON THE CAR.
2) The pressure shown on the sidewall is the MAX pressure and at that pressure the load capacity is established. Lower pressure, lower load.
3) It is never wise to operate street tires at highly elevated pressures. The tread will not "crown" like bias ply tires did, but the will do so enough to screw up the wear pattern.
4) If the tread is wearing evenly then you have the right pressure setting.
5) Changing tires may mean changing pressures, but no much.

That's it. Check keep checking them.
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 07:27:23 PM »
I'm running my Falkens at 29 on the street, and down to 35 from 40 for A/X. Next meet I plan on further reducing pressure. I'll find a sweet spot, and just leave them there for the street.

IMO, any cold pressure within 10 psi of the tire's max rating is cutting your safety zone low. My Falkens are rated to 50, anything over 40 and I wouldn't be comfortable running them on the street.
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Offline Critterman

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 09:00:12 PM »
I ran  32 on my Sumitomo's that look just like 238's  except for the name on the side :)  My tires showed wear out to the edge and slightly over, nothing on the side wall
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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 09:06:57 PM »
I'm with the group on this.
Liking 32 cold for now on stock GXP treads.
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Offline 1LILNDN

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 09:18:33 PM »
If you put Nitrogen in your wheels IT will stay at what ever you set it at.   GR8 4 auto/x or running any distance    :cheers:

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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 09:25:14 PM »
Oh no, not the B/S nitrogen again!!! 

Offline U4EA

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 10:29:12 PM »
  That TPMS that I added is a pretty nice tool to have.
Tell me more! Is this an aftermarket setup? Have the TPMS on the C6 and love it. Wish I could add a factory type setup on the '07 GXP.
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Offline LiquidPT

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2009, 02:49:12 AM »
If you put Nitrogen in your wheels IT will stay at what ever you set it at.   GR8 4 auto/x or running any distance    :cheers:

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You realize air is almost 80% nitrogen, right?

http://www.physlink.com/reference/AirComposition.cfm

And it's still subject to the laws of physics (particularly those of gasses). PV = nRT still exists. (The important ones here are P and V. Assuming the others stay constant, if temperature increases, so will pressure).

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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2009, 07:36:36 AM »
The nitrogen deal is not b/s. It IS more temperature stable. The REAL benefit is that it is DRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If one can get DRY "air" then it will be more stable because it is the WATER in the air that presents the challenge. Properly done, a SECOND valve stem is installed in a wheel to allow more effective purging of the air in the tire/rim assembly, and then either dry air or nitrogen is installed. Works, too. But a pressure gauge is cheaper !!!!!!
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Offline 2kwk4u

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 08:56:15 AM »
The last car I autocrossed (years ago) was a front-heavy, front-wheel drive '99 GTP Grand Prix.  I ran the fronts at 42 and the rears at 37 for autocross in that car.  Anything less, and I'd roll them onto the sidewalls in hard cornering.  This was especially true for the Bridgestone Potenza RE-730's I ran b/c their sidewalls were more pliable than the Michellin Pilot XGT-Z4's that I ran prior to the Bridgestones.  Now bear in mind that these were also a much higher aspect tire on 16" rims. 

Yesterday I left my stocker Screamin' Eagles at 29PSI, and it woked out for me.  Check out this picture of my front tire I just took this morning:



You can see that I rolled it a little past the edge of the tread blocks, but not quite onto any part of the sidewall.  I was completely satisfied with the way that looked after my first heat, so I left the tire pressures alone.  Now, it can be argued that I was just driving it like a :censor:  - and the fact that I came in third among 4 kappas supports that argument.  But if you look again at the tread itself, it looks pretty grainy/fuzzy.  To me that says I put a pretty good amount of heat in that tire.

Now none of this is to say that I plan to be content with 29 PSI for every event.  It may be that the surface yesterday just wasn't grippy enough to roll the tires over.  It may be (more likely) that as my driving improves with this car, I'll learn to push the tires harder and then I'll need to bump the pressures.

Of course, once I'm good on street tires, I'd like to get some good gumball tires that are purpose built for autocross.  Then we're talking a whole new ball of wax...

Offline LiquidPT

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2009, 02:07:05 PM »
The nitrogen deal is not b/s. It IS more temperature stable. The REAL benefit is that it is DRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If one can get DRY "air" then it will be more stable because it is the WATER in the air that presents the challenge. Properly done, a SECOND valve stem is installed in a wheel to allow more effective purging of the air in the tire/rim assembly, and then either dry air or nitrogen is installed. Works, too. But a pressure gauge is cheaper !!!!!!

The fact that it's dry, I could understand. I've got a filter on my compressor to catch moisture.
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Offline Treeman

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 05:57:33 PM »
Lots of good thoughts on here - thanks to all.  Driving them a bit more at 40 did start to feel a bit hard - started me also wondering about abuse on the suspension, especially with colder weather/pothole time coming.  But gosh they handle much better and they communicate what they are doing much better so I am going to try a compromise half way in between - which is also what Elff is doing - 35 psi and watch the tread wear.  And yes, I don't care if these wear out a bit faster because they are not exactly setting the high water mark here for tires.  And since this is to make up for the lack of a stiffer sidewall, I'd probably start at 29 again when i get some real tires.

By the way, Indy Cars have run nitrogen for decades. 
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 06:44:15 PM »
Tell me more! Is this an aftermarket setup? Have the TPMS on the C6 and love it. Wish I could add a factory type setup on the '07 GXP.

I added the Hella TC-400 TPMS system to my 07 GXP.  I got it from Tire rack.



When the dealer changed out the defective Crapyears on the passenger side they installed the sensors for me all around.  You can wire it up to a cigarette lighter plug or like I did hard wire it to the fuse panel in the passenger foot well.  I figure that if I can prevent wrecking a wheel then the money was well spent, getting to see what the temp and pressure of each wheel is is just a plus.
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 07:19:40 PM »
I don't really want to get into the whole nitrogen debate so don't take this as a I'm for or against it post.

Years ago, 12 to be exact, I worked doing nightly maintenance checks for one of the airlines, part of the inspection that we carried out on all of the planes was to check tire pressures.  These tires were filled with nitrogen, the airline had a shop that all they did was build up the tire/wheel assy so when we would get the assy there was no way that they were serviced with anything but nitrogen.  If the tires were low we had all the equipment to service them with nitrogen.  For the planes that we were working with the pressure was to be 130 psi and policy was that you never lowered the pressure if they were above 130 but always added if below.  Usually we would get to the planes and start checking things out within minutes of the plane landing, passengers would still be on the plane when we got to it.  After all the passengers and bags were removed we would inspect the gear.

What I found was if we could check the pressures while the tires were still warm from landing/braking then the pressures were at about 145 however if we were delayed, say two planes showed up at the same time, and pressures were taken once the tires had cooled then they would be at about 125.  Given that it was not uncommon for us to see the same plane for several nights in a row and we would be using the same pressure gage either the tires leaked a lot of pressure off in 24 hours or the pressure is more temp dependent then people think.

The only excuse that I have ever been given as to why nitrogen is used in aircraft has been because it is dry.  This is pretty important when you consider that while the temp on the ground can be in the 80's or 90's (F) at altitude it can be -40 or colder, so if there is moisture present it will condense and freeze.  Ice inside tires or struts can be a major problem.

For what its worth I could easily have been using nitrogen in my car tires for about the last 15 years or so as I have had access to the equipment for that long and no one would have given me a hard time about using company supplies but I still use the air that comes out of my shop compressor at home.  Why? It is just easier for me to service tires at home with an air hose that is close by rather then drive to work and drag a gas cylinder set up over to the car.
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Offline Treeman

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 07:42:06 PM »
I agree with your last point.  The way I understand it is, unless you are in a real high-performance application (Indy Car, airplane tires), nitrogen is overkill.  But, as someone said, putting a condensor on your air compressor is important.  I once had a balance issue, shop could not balance the tire, they took it off the rim and found some water inside.  This was in very humid Georgia and so was probably extreme, but they did think I should fill my tires at a different service station.
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Offline perris

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2009, 08:24:45 PM »
you know, the manufacturers recomendation is for a combination of comfort and performance, that recomendation gives neither the best pressure it's a compromise against the two

those criteria are mutually exclusive ont mutually dependant

I assume if you don't need the comfort or have a differant threshold for what comfort means then there would be a completely differant recomendation for what is the best tire pressure

those of you that like the ride with higher pressure fo for it as long as you don't approach the limits of the tire itself

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Why 29 psi?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2009, 07:31:33 AM »
when i was on the track at englishtown (not drag) we marked our tires to check wear. and i had mine at 29psi cold and it was perfect.

what is funny though is my 2000 camaro's manual said if u drive over 80 most of the time to put in 6PSI more than norm.
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