Topic: To V, or not to V...

[LiquidPT]

Kelu,
I don't disagree with you often, but I think there is great potential in diesel engines.  A small 4 or 6 cyl diesel with the right forced induction can be great fun, very fast, reliable etc.  I am not saying I don't like a great V8, I do.  I love them.  I just think it has been done and redone over and over.  The diesel is a new possibility (even though it's OLD technology).  Clean, quiet and FAST with great fuel economy.

And if I wanted an Audi, I'd of bought an Audi.  The solstice was better looking.  Also, I like the 4 cyl turbo.  I think it is the right engine combo with the car.  With simple changes in ECM and a few minor modifications, it's capable of hanging around most Mustangs, Camaros, etc.  It's not a Corvette.  It's not meant to be, but it CAN be. 

And now, in an attempt to return to the regularly scheduled programming....

Ah, but realize to Kelu, diesels have been overdone and they don't have much in the way of V8s... grass is always greener...

[LatinVenom]

My point about the Vette was exactly with what Yamatr3 said.
You have to have the rubber in the rear of the car to make that V8 useful.
The vette was build to get that V8 power and use it, our car was never build for that.
I do not like the Vette looks and it has been like that now for a long time.
I was trying to answer the OP requests, perhaps the best thing he can do is try to find a member that has a V8 Kappa and take it for a ride.
In order for our car to be able to look and use those 315 - 335 tires is to have a  body design like the Pitt Bull.

[kennysabarese]

Most cars come with V8's have them because they need them to go fast cuz they are overweight pigs. But on the other hand. To say it's not designed for it, I don't think I agree with that. Any racecar that gies fast has a powerful engine and is light. Why doesn't the car smoke tires? Because people know how to drive them and don't push WOT from a standstill. F1 cars can spin tires on command. Doesn't mean there is too much power. Speaking of f1 cars. They are only 2.4 liter V8's. So it's not the displacement

[Gentleman Jack]

Most cars come with V8's have them because they need them to go fast cuz they are overweight pigs. But on the other hand. To say it's not designed for it, I don't think I agree with that. Any racecar that gies fast has a powerful engine and is light. Why doesn't the car smoke tires? Because people know how to drive them and don't push WOT from a standstill. F1 cars can spin tires on command. Doesn't mean there is too much power. Speaking of f1 cars. They are only 2.4 liter V8's. So it's not the displacement

Kenny,
How do the Kappas compare to F1 cars in terms of downforce? 

Just kidding.  I know you weren't going there.  It is funny though, how much driving style and intent / purpose for building the car come in to play when answering the V or not to V question.  For me, as posted above, it would be more about the adventure of trying something new (new for the USA any way - head nod to Liquid PT) that isn't everywhere.  I am not looking for a race car.  I am looking for a car that is a blast to drive, reliable and different.  Exactly why I chose the Solstice in the first place. 

GJ

[Critterman]

BSS - to answer your question on the rebuild, there is a thread here on that by Graywolf.

[ChopTop]

Get the stang because you honestly like it.  It's ready to rock and roll, and you have a backseat (albeit a small one), and a trunk.  Since the stang community is huge it's kind of nice to know you can find club events to go too and instantly fit in, plus it's huge with aftermarket suppliers.  About the only downside is modding, because I'll betcha someone somewhere has already done it by now.  The upside to that is there's a proven formula to follow.

A V8 Kappa with a healthy sounding V8 in it is going to turn heads.  Even people who wouldn't look twice at them will turn to their buddies and say, I thought they only had 4 cylinders in them as it rumbles by.  The downside is not a lot of them are around so finding other people to pick their brains if an issue comes up will be more difficult, and it might not be as easy to live with on a day to day basis as the stang.  But the attention you'll get during cruise night might be priceless.   

Theirs no right or wrong answer but what do you want to do? Blend in, or work a little harder and stand out?

[Uranium-238]

My interest is a mustang is mostly because of all the aftermarket support, and how cheap it is. I don't have to have a unique ride, the fact that everyone has one doesn't turn me off. Want a roll cage kit? $200. Aftermarket brakes? Pick your poison. Exhaust? Just about any option you could imagine.

But, I have the Sky, and unless something happens to it I'll likely stick with it. Getting a Mustang would mean starting at square one all over again, and waiting even longer for it to get paid off so I can reall tear into it.

I don't think anybody with an LS engine in their Kappa will ever have to worry about getting help troubleshooting engine issues, seeing how common these engines are.

And another thing, I'm not looking into this to attract attention at Kappa gatherings, I'm considering this solely for racing. If a V8 goes into my Kappa a couple years down the road, I'll likely gut some interior stuff, install a roll cage, ditch the convertible top, install dual master brake cylinders, etc. How extreme I go will depend on the resale value of the car, but my goal is to turn it into a street-legal race car.

[kennysabarese]

I think you'll end up with a better race car with the Kappa in the end. Once you put a hard top on the kappa the cage will be easier.

But if you really want a street legal race car and you don't care about the looks... I think this is a no brainer.  Old Miata with a V8. You. Will. Kill. Everything. (see monster miatas website)

If you want to dominate autox, the lightest AWD vehicle you can find. You don't need a huge amount of power for AutoX. AWD DSMs could be good if you upgrade the trans.

If you want a race Mustang, screw the 2011, get a Fox Body stang and put in a newer V8. They are the lightest and smallest Mustang's afaik and you have millions of junkyard parts. You could probably slap together a decent suspension for cheap and kill some races.

Keep the sky as a street car, that's what it's best for. Make the ride more comfortable, lay back and put the power down with a slightly larger turbo. This is what I plan to do if I get serious enough that massive mods are required.

I'd love a Corvette Gran Sport (dry sump) with proper electronic manual paddle shifters and rev matching with STS rear twin turbo setup.

[kennysabarese]

The other thing I'll have to say is this. Installation fees you pay you will never get back. Think about that when you are going to pay someone a few grand to install a V8.

Now's a great time to buy race cars. People are selling them because of the recession. Let them do the work.

Consider a Porsche 914, ugly, light, mid-engine fun. You can also get a 944 for cheap and dump a bigger engine or turbo into them. There's just so many options. Consider a spec racer if you want to have a race class to jump in and go.

Also my last thought is something I am also considering. Formula cars. Large up front cost. lower long term cost. They are ready to race, no constant money drain like a street car. Problem is you need a truck and trailer.

(end rant)

[Uranium-238]

It's insane how cheap some cars can be had for. An all-out 9-second foxbody can be had for a song these days. However, road racing or A/X foxbodies are far harder to find. A friend is building up his foxbody, and while things are cheap, the sheer amount of things you have to replace add up. It's not like a newer car were many of the stock parts are still race ready.

The problem with buying a foxbody though is sooner or later I'd just have to turn it into a Cobra...

We'll see. All of this is still a couple years out, so I've got plenty of time to learn. My only real requirement is that the car has to be streetable, I'm not looking to trailer anything but tires to a track.

[wspohn]

But if you really want a street legal race car and you don't care about the looks... I think this is a no brainer.  Old Miata with a V8. You. Will. Kill. Everything. (see monster miatas website)

Hard to get enough rubber under there to put the power to the road, and the damned frames flex.

At least they are lighter than the porcine Kappas are!

[Uranium-238]

Yeah, from what I'm seeing the biggest hurdle these cars face if turned into race machines is the diet they need. These cars are more than a little stout for their size!

[TecSolOnt]

  There was a V8 Solstice forum , not very active but had some posts from those that had them. I noticed a thread on quarter mile times,  low 13's.  Given the cash , effort etc. to do this it seemed like a lot of money for little return.  I'm betting Critterman's stage 3 would be pretty close to a V8 in the 1/4.  As others have said it comes down to getting the power to the road.  Watching Passtime , saw a Eagle Talon AWD with turbo blow the doors off a 800 HP Viper ,  he just sat there and spun.  The Talon looked like it was worth about 5 grand , the guy sure seemed to know how to get the most out of it but it was a rocket, low 10's, impressive.

[Uranium-238]

Something is wrong if a V8 kappa is only running in the 13's. Heck, DPG would be in the 12's with a set of Mickey Thompsons.

Unless, of course, somebody swapped in a LS1 and didn't bother upgrading at least the heads and cams...honestly if you're going to do an engine swap do it right.

[kennysabarese]

Yeah, from what I'm seeing the biggest hurdle these cars face if turned into race machines is the diet they need. These cars are more than a little stout for their size!

I think norms hardtop should help with weight. Also gut the doors, rear decklid, aftermarket hood, Also if you put a rollcage in, it will help with the convertible flex.

Then you won't need so much power

Are you focused on autox or road racing?

[Uranium-238]

The dream is to build a car that could work for both. However, road racing would be limited to time trials and other events where there aren't other cars to run into...

As for the convertible top, why not do like dmac's, just build a roll cage and forget about a roof? (At least at first...)

[kennysabarese]

For a dedicated track car, I want one that I don't mine rubbing against a wall or tires. If I am going to keep the kappa a long time and body panels are going to be that hard to find in the future I don't wanna take too many risks. Track cars get beat to hell and the street compromises are far too much in the kappa. Just my seats will make it tough for most normal people to get in and out of. I wouldn't even want to take it to a valet. With a proper rollcage with side protection, it becomes really hard to get in and out of.

I'm not familiar with dmac's rollcage so I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here.

If you put in a cage that doesn't interfere with the trunklid or the ragtop then you have no weight loss, which is what I think one of your goals was. You aren't going to be able to remove the top and put it back in, so then you wouldn't have a streetable car, unless you live in Aruba where it doesn't ever rain.

Norm's coupe top allows you to remove the trunklid and convertible top, and using a plexi window in the back, I think you will lose weight overall. And then will be allowed a proper SCCA spec rollcage which would allow you to do hillclimb. Also the coupe top will help with airflow.

[Uranium-238]

I hadn't considered the body panels issue, that's a good point.

Dmac just has an open roll cage, no roof or convertible top. Though I didn't realize Norm makes a hardtop, I'll have to look into that...anybody have pictures?

[kennysabarese]

I guess dmac lives where there is no rain. Lucky guy.

It's a coupe style hard top for better airflow. Plexi window for lightness. But made to fit on top of a convertible Solstice (and maybe Sky, though the style wouldn't really match)
 
http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f48/new-hard-top-racing-62387/

I have a feeling it's gunna be expensive.

[Uranium-238]

You're talking about that convertible top pictured, not the coupe thing right? That looks pretty good...though I'd imagine it might be easier to build a roll cage and design a sheet metal or CF roof around that, something more alike the hard top in the Pontiac Solstice Performance book...

Gah, I need to hurry up and get my degree. So many ideas, so little money...

[kennysabarese]

The coupe hard top which that post is about turns the solstice convertible into a solstice coupe.

The smoothline/SCCA style top requires you to keep the trunklid, which I believe is pretty heavy.

[Uranium-238]

Well there's always the Saturn sport CF body panels... (I can dream, right?)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the weight and front/rear balance of Dmac's car? If a V8 kappa racecar is the goal they'd likely have plenty of good information.

Another plus for the Foxbody idea: Older cars are way easier to work on. Just how much room is there in the engine bay if a LS3 is stuffed in there? Only pics I've seen have had those pointless plastic pieces covering up all the V8 goodness...

[kennysabarese]

oh DMAC, that drifter guy. lol I thought it was some forum member. I don't follow that sliding stuff too much

LS3 in a foxbody

http://www.3.8mustang.com/forum/showpost.php?s=741e653b46452f187bed1f5c63f32f9f&p=4177885&postcount=16

[reedred]

To rehijack for a minute, my father's gf has an 08 MB E320 Bluetec.  It's a whole lot of torquey fun (400 lb-ft) although handling leaves a bit to be desired.  Of course, it is a half-ton heavier, significantly taller, and on smaller wheels than what I'm used to.   It's not much noisier than my ticking RL, doesn't belch much of anything, and gets better mileage. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/07q2/2007_mercedes-benz_e320_bluetec-road_test

Driving it makes going places with the fam almost bearable!

[Gentleman Jack]

reedred,

if you like that, try the BMW 335d.  It sold me on the idea of a "new" diesel or clean diesel.  Unbelievable.  Even if you don't intend to buy, I highly recommend to everyone to head down to your local BMW dealer and give one a good rip.  You will be surprised.  Then, when you get back and the tires are melting, leave the car running and go stick your nose in the tail pipe.  No really.  Nothing.  no smell, no smoke.  Zip.  Really amazing.  Can't wait for the "big three" to catch up.  CTS-V diesel (although, CTS-VD just doesn't work does it?) would be a perfect set up.

GJ\
inventor of the newest incurable VD.  The Cadillac CTS-VD.