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Author Topic: Alignment Info for Kappas  (Read 61076 times)

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Offline Treeman

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2010, 12:43:54 PM »
This is good info.  I was planning to have DDM do mine at the meet but ran out of $$.  Nother time.  But thanks for the feedback - it does help answer the few nagging questions.....
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Offline chuckdoc

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2010, 12:59:58 PM »
Thanks, I will see if DDM can work me in
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2010, 07:06:43 PM »
Random comments;

* Ben L, I assume you meant GM likes UNDERsteer, not OVERsteer.
* Dealerships, a lot of name brand tire shops, and many independent shops do not like to go outside factory specs. Two reasons; that don't know how to completely use their alignment equipment, and liability. 
* Dealerships just don't think outside the box. Different = bad.
* Kenny, the reason the Formula car's steering snaps back is a) alignment, but more importantly b) NO power steering. It will be the exceptional power steering system that will have the strong self centering that a 1000 pound Formula car has. The Kappas come with 8 degrees of positive caster, and that is a BUNCH. If the car is lowered one can get more, but that has down sides as well. The critical aspect of caster is to have both sides as equal as possible or caster split will induce pull. NASCAR uses just this trait on ovals, but keep equal caster setting on road courses.
* Frankly, the factory "race" alignment specs make no sense to me. To IN on the front is what I wonder about. Additionally, look at ANY of the SS/B and T2 Sols and they have WAY more camber than in those specs.
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Offline Ben L

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 07:05:17 AM »
I did mean UNDERsteer.  And's Bob's right.  Minimizing side to side variance is really important with caster.  Kenny, the return force on my lowered, homebrew alignment GXP is very nice.  I have always liked how good the steering wheel feel is on my car. 

As I said, we went for near zero toe.  Toe in + lots of neg. camber will induce tire edge wear.   If I still did competition events in the GXP, I'd mark the tie rod ends for a squosh of toe out, and change it at the event for better turn in.  But I've tried to run a little toe out on the highway, and it trams quite a bit and can be disconcerting.

Larry and I also aligned U-238's Sky.  We have a lift, turnplates and an alignment tool at his place.  We did not change rear caster, because you need the digital tool depicted in the first post of this thread for that.

Chuck, a good well equipped performance shop wouldn't bat an eye at these alignment settings.  There are a few in the area.  When several of us made the trek to Northern Virginia to Ptuning last year for a dyno day, we saw a brand new laser alignment rack.

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 07:08:45 AM »
Cool, I'd love to feel the wheel in your car this weekend. Will help me get a starting point once I put my Konis on.
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Offline Ben L

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2010, 07:26:24 AM »
Anytime, Kenny.  Just not this weekend.  Will not be at the Mod Meet. 

Two days of SCCA PDX and Time Trial on the Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point lined up! 

Not many entries.  They just increased track time for Intermediate and Advanced to four thirty minute sessions.  Saturday is track time, Sunday morning, more track time, Sunday afternoon, club time trials.  Three hot laps with transponder, fastest gets logged.  I'm going to run the TT in Fast Freddie's FFR roadster, and Fred is going for a track record in my FFR coupe.  Finally dragged Larry out for at least one day.

Registration's been extended for those who are interested, and not planning to attend MM7.

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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2010, 07:29:40 AM »
Doh crap. I didn't realize. too bad :( Good luck!
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Offline Critterman

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2010, 09:15:48 AM »
BenL - Lots of video please
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Offline JimmyBaja

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:53 PM »
These alignment specs are for the Z0K suspension option, I still only have the stock "ride & handling" suspension that comes on the N/A with a GXP rear swaybar - can I use these specs or can someone recommend the preferred more agressive settings for my suspension?
Document ID# 1858040

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Info - Alignment Specifications - Competitive Driving #06-03-07-003A - (08/24/2006)

Models: 2006 - 2009 Pontiac Solstice 
        with RPO Z0K

Attention:  For customers that intend to use their 2006 Pontiac Solstice equipped with option code Z0K for competitive driving, the following front and rear suspension specifications provide for optimum tire wear performance. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This bulletin is being revised to include additional information in the Suspension Preparation section. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 06-03-07-003 (Section 03 - Suspension).

Alignment Settings
The following alignment settings provide for even tire wear in competitive driving.

Please use the following alignment specifications for competitive driving only:

Camber Front -1.75 +/- .75 deg.
           Rear  -1.5  +/- .75 deg.
 
Caster Front  7.75 +/- .5 deg.
          Rear  -4.0  +/- .5 deg.
 
Toe    Front   .10 +/- .2 deg.
         Rear    .10 +/- .2 deg.
For adjustment procedures, please refer to the following SI documents:

   - Front Caster and Camber Adjustment
   - Front Toe Adjustment
   - Rear Camber Adjustment
   - Rear Toe Adjustment

Warranty Information
The above modifications are considered to be a customer option and performed at customer's expense.


Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2010, 06:33:12 PM »
You do not want to use these numbers with your standard suspension.
If you are going to autox you need to improve your suspension, unless you just want to have some fun on the weekends.
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »
There's no reason that the Z0K alignment specs will not work with a non-Z0K suspension. In the same way the stock specs will work with the Z0K components.

I think you should do it, unless you plan to upgrade, because then when you lower the car you'll have to do it again.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2010, 06:59:10 PM »
LV, I have to agree with Kenny on that. Jimmy, one of the most satisfying upgrades one can do to a Kappa is to tighten up the suspension. You should easily be able to glom on to a set of FE3 shock/spring units for cheap, and FE3 bars should be laying around as well. This will NOT lower the car, but all the rayes are ~20% firmer. If you like THAT, then you can buy GXP/Z0K springs (lowers the car about an inch and firm the rates by another 20%) and GXP/Z0K REAR bar. The car will be transformed. The key to keeping this all below $500-$600 is to get some help with the installation. For non-competition the above specs are fine except to use ZERO toe front and rear. HTH some.
Bob Buxbaum
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2010, 07:15:08 PM »
Bob sure, but the alignment change without the equipment is not going to work as well as if he were to change to what you are suggesting.
He has the bug and will end up probably lowering and changing the suspension.
Why spend the money now, when he will end up having to aligned it again and probably more than once, as he gets more and more comfortable with the car.
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2010, 07:18:15 PM »
I have a question. Why not put the GXP Z0K stuff on an NA (apart from rules in your racing group)

Surprised no one has done that?
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Offline JimmyBaja

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2010, 08:06:58 PM »
Thanks all for the advise.

For now it's just fun on the weekends. I am planning on the suspension upgrade but I don't think I will be able to make it happen before the season is finished, I burned this years play money on the SC. Also not sure I want to lower the car just yet since this is my daily driver for now.

I just wanted to take the first step in improving the handling a little bit as I learn my new weekend pass time.

Offline snaponbob

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2010, 08:07:39 PM »
Bob sure, but the alignment change without the equipment is not going to work as well as if he were to change to what you are suggesting.
He has the bug and will end up probably lowering and changing the suspension.
Why spend the money now, when he will end up having to aligned it again and probably more than once, as he gets more and more comfortable with the car.

Going by what you said ('you don't want to do that'...) I simply suggested that it would. Jimmy didn't mention anything more than (at least in today's post) if the tech bulletin specs could be used. But, if he DOES plan on racing, upgrading first certainly makes sense.
Bob Buxbaum
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FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline JimmyBaja

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2010, 08:18:19 PM »
Going by what you said ('you don't want to do that'...) I simply suggested that it would. Jimmy didn't mention anything more than (at least in today's post) if the tech bulletin specs could be used. But, if he DOES plan on racing, upgrading first certainly makes sense.

I plan on doing autocross as much as I can to learn for this season with minimal cash out & then being more competetive with more suspension mods as cash allows for next year.

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2010, 08:23:18 PM »
If you can find FE3 swaybars for free, there is no reason not to slap those puppies on. Then the only thing you gotta buy are the lowering springs and then DDM ProBeam and you're set. You probably still want the Backbone. But you should ask DDM if they have done a chassis flex test on the coupe.

But yeah keep your eyes peeled. You don't have to do them all at the same time.
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Offline JimmyBaja

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2010, 08:32:20 PM »
If you can find FE3 swaybars for free, there is no reason not to slap those puppies on. Then the only thing you gotta buy are the lowering springs and then DDM ProBeam and you're set. You probably still want the Backbone. But you should ask DDM if they have done a chassis flex test on the coupe.

But yeah keep your eyes peeled. You don't have to do them all at the same time.

Allready have:
-DDM race backbone
-probeam
-FE3 rear swaybar
-plenty of powah  :devil:

Need:
-MONEY
-stiffer shocks/springs
-stickier tires
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »
I plan on doing autocross as much as I can to learn for this season with minimal cash out & then being more competetive with more suspension mods as cash allows for next year.

That said, there are questions to answer, but the VERY first is "what class?". That dictates what you can do to your car. BTW - was there a 2.4 Z0K Coupe listed as an option? OOPS. Forgot you have done the SC thing. Your car is in SSM (I think) or higher. Come to think of it, the Backbone puts it in Prepared which is a slick tire class. Get some GXP/Z0K springs at a minimum. I am running north of 500# springs and my Redline is still very street worthy. Oh, LOTS more camber - like 2.7 front and 1.8 rear.
Bob Buxbaum
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2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline JimmyBaja

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2010, 08:42:40 PM »
I think I inadvertently forced myself into a tough class with the supercharger & chassis mods (backbone/probeam) I think I would be in "B Mod"  :idk:

Offline snaponbob

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2010, 09:52:38 PM »
Ahhhhh, what the hell. Stiffen up the suspension and go have some fun.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline boardkat

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2010, 10:08:23 PM »
I am running north of 500# springs and my Redline is still very street worthy. Oh, LOTS more camber - like 2.7 front and 1.8 rear.
the "magic" of monotubes, gotta love 'em!

to the OP:
depending on your driving style, -2.5 front and -1.8 rear is a great baseline.  if you're erratic/turn-in hard and/or LATE, more front camber.  if you like a more "set" back-end, more rear camber.  caster: aim for +8 front, -4 rear (depending on how much camber you're running, this may not be possible if you're running stock control arms/alignment cams).  as for toe, the car doesn't really need help with turn-in.  i've tried toe-out up front, it didn't help and started killing my tires on the street.  as for the rear, 0 toe will enable you to neutral drift at speed everywhere, highly desirable if you can keep the car in check.  toe-out is a no-no (try it, you'll see).  toe-in as needed, if you want the car planted (the more you drive though, the closer you'll get to 0, in my experience).
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 10:37:18 PM »
oh hah i forgot you had all that stuff already! load up on free stuff if u can find em.  get some FE3 shocks and springs off someone who has em laying around, z0k NA springs if you do want to lower it, ain't too expensive. then align.

I'd recommend the front swaybar against most people's recommendation. It's a package GM meant to put together and I love it so far. Maybe if you get hardcore into AX you can change it. But I say start with what GM intended. (end rant)

Regarding lowering, I don't think you'll have clearance issues with the Z0K ride height. It's not as low as some others with the adjustable shocks.  Ask Uranium, he's been driving his Z0K height car around.  I'll know in a few weeks.
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Alignment Info for Kappas
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 10:53:38 PM »
As for a lowered car as a daily driver, to me it's not really an issue. You just have to watch out for speed bumps, really nasty potholes and roadkill. To me, running a modded engine in a daily driver is way more concerning than a lowered car.

Granted, the air dam scrapes on just about everything, but so far it's holding up well. If you want to keep your car pristine I'd probably advise against lowering it, otherwise go for it.

Oh, and I've got the GXP ZOK rear sway bar with the stock one up front, and I'm really happy with what it did for the car. I'm big into Forza 3, (My lap times on certain tracks are in the top 8k worldwide) and all my cars end up with really stiff rear sway bars in comparison to the front. So, sorry Kenny, but I have to disagree with you on that point. Yes, you sorta/kinda can get the same effect by tweaking the shocks, but to me that kinda defeats the idea of a sway bar.
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