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Author Topic: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating  (Read 9861 times)

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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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So there has been a crap load of discussion on oil in the intake and smoke from the tail pile and an explanation is in order of how things work.   I just got off the phone from Dave from DDM and discovered that what I learned earlier and Some New Guy posted is correct about the PCV valve. 

Facts:
1. The PCV valve is between the valve cover and intake manifold on the drivers side. 
2. The PCV hose is the hose between the air box and the passenger side of the valve cover and had a check valve in line.
3. The hose from the front of the valve cover on the passenger side that goes down to the turbo is a breather

Function:
Air from the intake enters the valve cover from the passenger side and exits in two locations.  The PCV valve which then dumps into the intake manifold and through the breather into the turbo.

Causes of oil in turbo - resulting detonation:
1. Check valve in #2 above is malfunctioning.  Easily tested.
2. Aftermarket tunes increase the pressure on the intake manifold causes oil to blow into the breather line at the front of the intake resulting in oil pooling in the bottom of the turbo and getting into the bottom of the hose as it connect to the turbo inlet side.

Fix:
Install a OCC as pictured in IBD's photo below.  Only one is needed.  This would capture the oil blown into the turbo due to excess pressures from an aftermarket tune.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

By request of Arabas I called Dave @ DDM Works and he said he will investigate a OCC kit solution and will let us know in one or two days.....

p.s.  Sorry Chuckdoc, we ordered possibly a unnecessary part.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 04:04:16 PM by DeepBlueGXP »

Offline Yogi

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »
Can you describe where the lines on the OCC are attached?
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Offline Arabas

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 03:24:57 PM »
thx for clearing that Joe and thx for communicating with DDM.
Hope they will be able to offer us a quality product at a good price!!

finally, regarding the facts (1,2 and 3), maybe it would become crystal clear to have these three points marked in a picture or two of our engine (coz english terms are all greek to me :))

again, thx Joe
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 03:27:07 PM »
I updated the photo above with call out descriptions

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 03:27:54 PM »
This still doesn't help with the fact that the "check valve" is prone to failure...
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 03:28:53 PM »
But I don't believe the check valve is the failure now.  Chuckdoc's tested fine.

Offline Sly Bob

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 03:32:41 PM »
This still doesn't help with the fact that the "check valve" is prone to failure...

They aren't really prone to failure, not when being used for the conditions for which they were designed. On a stock engine but if a tune is installed the occ may well be the way to go.
Just trying to do my part...

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Offline Kelu

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »
It is me or something is not 100% clear?  :idk:

Function:
Air from the intake enters the valve cover from the right side and exits in two locations.
Just double checking. You are referring the braided hose which has the check valve connected to the nipple right after airbox to the valve covers on the passenger side, right? (right/left side is very confusing all the time)

The PCV valve which then dumps into the intake manifold or through the breather into the turbo.
[...]
2. Aftermarket tunes increase the pressure on the intake manifold causes oil to blow into the breather line at the front of the intake resulting in oil pooling in the bottom of the turbo and getting into the bottom of the hose as it connect to the turbo inlet side.
Ok, so when is boost, blow by to the turbo, but when is vacuum (90% of our time) what stops fumes to go into the intake manifold on the other route?

Causes of oil in turbo - resulting detonation:
1. Check valve in #2 above is malfunctioning.  Easily tested.
[...]
Fix:
Install a OCC as pictured in IBD's photo below.  Only one is needed.  This would capture the oil blown into the turbo due to excess pressures from an aftermarket tune.
If the check valves fails, we don't have any indicator other than checking that line from time to time? Uranium reported failure within 2 weeks after installing a new one. There are other ways to monitor oil leaks into intake through that line? Other solution than just checking the line?
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Offline Treeman

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 04:01:30 PM »
But I don't believe the check valve is the failure now.  Chuckdoc's tested fine.

So, if Chuckdoc's check valve (which is not the PCV valve? is it right next to the PCV valve in the pic?) is OK, then what you are saying is that the only reason he is getting oil in the intake is the higher pressure generated by the GMPP tune?  He still has only the GMPP, no additional tunes, right? 

If that is the case, I worry about a catch-22 for those of us who stuck with GMPP for warranty reasons. If we don't do anything, we could have engine damage of one sort or another because GM did not adequately consider the effects of increased boost on the PCV system.  If we add this catch can, I can see dealers saying you modified both the emissions and the crankcase lubrication systems and voiding warranties. 

I assume ChuckDoc is not interested in raising this with GM in someway and seeing if they will honor the warranty associated with GMPP tune and redesign the PCV system?
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 04:11:09 PM »
It is me or something is not 100% clear?  :idk:
Just double checking. You are referring the braided hose which has the check valve connected to the nipple right after airbox to the valve covers on the passenger side, right? (right/left side is very confusing all the time)
I fixed the first post changing "right" to "passenger"

Ok, so when is boost, blow by to the turbo, but when is vacuum (90% of our time) what stops fumes to go into the intake manifold on the other route?
From the way Dave explained it to me ....  and in my own words to make it sound correct...  Since the check valve is installed in such a way that it is like a "Y" junction and since rushing air passes the "Y" it forces more air past the valve thereby pressurizing the crankcase which forces oil to block into the hose that exits the front of the valve cover. 
If the check valves fails, we don't have any indicator other than checking that line from time to time? Uranium reported failure within 2 weeks after installing a new one. There are other ways to monitor oil leaks into intake through that line? Other solution than just checking the line?.
The check valve is red on the inside, a quick disconnect and check with a flash light will see if it is oily


So, if Chuckdoc's check valve (which is not the PCV valve? is it right next to the PCV valve in the pic?)
No the actual PCV valve is on the drivers side.
is OK, then what you are saying is that the only reason he is getting oil in the intake is the higher pressure generated by the GMPP tune?  He still has only the GMPP, no additional tunes, right?
He has a GMPP+Westers
If that is the case, I worry about a catch-22 for those of us who stuck with GMPP for warranty reasons. If we don't do anything, we could have engine damage of one sort or another because GM did not adequately consider the effects of increased boost on the PCV system.  If we add this catch can, I can see dealers saying you modified both the emissions and the crankcase lubrication systems and voiding warranties. 

I assume ChuckDoc is not interested in raising this with GM in someway and seeing if they will honor the warranty associated with GMPP tune and redesign the PCV system?
Probably not since he has GMPP+Westers and I don't think GM will waste any more time redesigning anything on the Kappa unless it is safety related.

Offline Kelu

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 04:34:12 PM »
From the way Dave explained it to me ....  and in my own words to make it sound correct...  Since the check valve is installed in such a way that it is like a "Y" junction and since rushing air passes the "Y" it forces more air past the valve thereby pressurizing the crankcase which forces oil to block into the hose that exits the front of the valve cover.
I think you got me wrong.
Back to the basics:
Y system, one intake, 2 exists.

Quote
1. The PCV valve is between the valve cover and intake manifold on the drivers side.
2. The PCV hose is the hose between the air box and the passenger side of the valve cover and had a check valve in line.
3. The hose from the front of the valve cover on the passenger side that goes down to the turbo is a breather

Function:
Air from the intake enters the valve cover from the passenger side and exits in two locations.  The PCV valve which then dumps into the intake manifold and through the breather into the turbo.
I'm not asking why oil gets back into the hose #2, I'm asking what stops the fumes/residues to go into the intake manifold through #1.
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Offline Arabas

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 05:13:38 PM »
i believe that Kelu is right.
we may have to consider a dual catch can after all.
if the check valve fails (pcv hose), then we will get oil in the intake from there.
the OCC used on the valve cover breather, will have done its job, but the check valve will not have. and i believe it is not a solution to unplug it and check it every week.

if i may, i will post two links (one is for a Toyota) and the other from a Subaru forum.
i post them in order to see what others say for this case and to read general rules that apply to every car.
if it not OK to post these, pls delete them

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

http://www.815subarus.com/forum/index.php?topic=1030.0
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 06:00:19 PM »
Arabas, great links.  Thanks

I thought this quote best describes our problems.  Perhaps a dual is required but I'd prefer to hear from the expert on the Kappa.  Dave

Quote
   A quick explanation to add to Mcovins'.  A catch can, as stated above helps reduce atomized oil in the crankcase from entering the intake tract of the engine.  All engines even stock/ NA engines are affected by Ring Blowby.  This is a condition where combustion gases/fluids escape past the rings, and make their way into the crankcase.  The PCV system is in place to make sure that the crankcase does not become pressurized by these blowby gasses.  But as a side affect PCV valves will take some of the oil that has been atomized by the rods and crank whipping around and deposit it into your intake tract.

   There are two reasons why oil in your intake tract is undesirable:
1. It lowers the effective octane rating of the intake charge making you more prone to detonation. 
2. It coats your intercooler lowering it's efficiency which raises intake charge temps; again making you more prone to detonation.
 
   The amount of blowby an engine suffers from (assuming rings are in good shape) is roughly proportional to cylinder pressure.  A high cylinder pressure (such as those found in turbocharged cars) will naturally yield more blowby.  As you can see, this can quickly turn into a vicious circle of "more boost=more blowby"

   This scenario is not a problem on the stock car because A. they are running relatively low boost and B. they are not running near as close to the detonation threshold as finely tuned hi boost enignes (such as Mclovins').  To assure safe knock free operation in cases such as Mclovins' you need as much effective Octane rating in your charge as you can get and low manifold air temps.  It is hard to do this with an oil contaminated charge lowering your octane rating and an intercooler not operating at peak efficiency because it's inner surface area is coated in oil.
Hope this helps, Martin

Offline shabby

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 06:02:46 PM »
These pcv valve/catch can threads are getting a bit out of hand, you guys are blowing this way out of proportion and over complicating such a simple part/solution.
This was the first mod i did on my car over 3 and half years ago http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f63/gxp-needs-catch-can-new-intercooler-pipes-26786/

Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 06:26:52 PM »
Shabby,

Where's the final photo of it installed?

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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 06:41:11 PM »
I assume you have had your intake off since then and there was no oil?

Offline shabby

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 06:44:48 PM »
Bone dry.

Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 06:45:29 PM »
Thanks, that answers our friends question from overseas that we only need one catch can.

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2010, 06:46:08 PM »
And that helps those of us with check valve issues...how?
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Offline shabby

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 06:53:16 PM »
And that helps those of us with check valve issues...how?
You'd start by replacing the broken check valve or use a generic ball/spring pcv valve that can be had for cheap with a new hose.

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 06:56:19 PM »
Been there, done that, that one failed too. Next?
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Offline shabby

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 06:58:48 PM »
Try my second suggestion.

Offline Critterman

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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 07:24:05 PM »
PCV is the check valve, not to be confused with the PVC valve on the other side of the engine
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Re: LNF Oil Catch Can(OCC) setup possible from DDM Works. Investigating
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 08:16:37 PM »
glad my pic was helpful, there is alot of awsome info in these occ threads..
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