Topic: Leaded fuel in the Kappa?

[kennysabarese]

Let's bring the discussion over here boys.

If you run leaded fuel and must remove the O2 sensors, you've now removed the closed loop AFR correction.

Isn't that bad?

[Gentleman Jack]

Kenny,

I may be wrong, but won't that also kill the Catalytic converter?  Or is this assuming that has been replaced with a DP?

GJ

[kennysabarese]

"Leaded gasoline contaminates the catalyst used inside a catalytic converter, destroying its usefulness and leading to a clogged converter."

Source: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question482.htm

[Gentleman Jack]

yeah, thats what I'm saying.  So, has anyone noted in this discussion that this only applies to catless folk?

I guess I just did.

[Rogue]

Is the O2 sensor vulnerable to lead? I thought it was just the catcons that lead damages.

[kennysabarese]

Bob said it in the Solo Nats thread. Just wanted to move the discuss out here.

It seems based on a quick google that most oxygen sensors will be damaged by lead.

Seems that basically you can use the o2 sensor for a short time to tune the AFR, then remove it once the tune is running properly.

Example 1:

http://www.knfilters.com/airfuelmonitors.htm

"The oxygen sensor in your K&N Air/Fuel Monitor assembly is not compatible with leaded fuels or any fuel additive containing lead. Leaded fuel will contaminate the oxygen sensor causing it to deliver a false reading. The Monitor can, however, be used to momentarily test an engine burning leaded fuel. Simply install the sensor - re-calibrate the fuel delivery system to deliver the desired air/fuel ratio - then remove the sensor to avoid prolonged exposure. This short term exposure will extend the useful life of the sensor when testing an engine burning leaded fuel, but eventually it will become contaminated. Once contaminated, the sensor must be replaced to restore the accuracy of your instrument. Additionally, since there is no efficient way to test the sensor, there is no way to determine the level of contamination. Therefore, we recommend periodically comparing a used sensor to a new one."

Example 2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

Leaded gasoline contaminates the oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Most oxygen sensors are rated for some service life in the presence of leaded gasoline but sensor life will be shortened to as little as 15,000 miles depending on the lead concentration. Lead-damaged sensors typically have their tips discolored light rusty

[snaponbob]

Interesting observation from the Nats. As most have learned, with or without cats and regardless of tune, the LNF engine soots up everything. Alex Jones is running 110 octane gas and his exhaust pipe is a perfect tan color. Curious.

[Yogi]

Interesting observation from the Nats. As most have learned, with or without cats and regardless of tune, the LNF engine soots up everything. Alex Jones is running 110 octane gas and his exhaust pipe is a perfect tan color. Curious.

That is interesting!  Would you know whose tune Jones is running?

[Critterman]

Sounds like Alex has a perfect tune.

[MGar]

I do believe a side effect of properly tuning for 110 octane gas would likely resolve sooting.  By running both leaner and adding timing, I believe the burn will be hotter.  A hotter burn (along with being leaner to begin with), will likely result in less soot.

[DrJones]

I have been working with Lyndon Wester for a couple years now. Just reciently (mid summer) we switched to higher octane tunes and are working optimizing the tune for the leaded 110 octane.

Lyndon has been great to work with and I can't recomend him enough!

His tune was defintaly one of the reasons we did so well at nationals last year (had 3rd dropped to 4th). This year we had some weather and driver issues :/

Lots of changes for 2011.

Alex

[wspohn]

Yeah, we use O2 sensors for tuning on our old race cars, but have a port that we plug when we are finished tuning and remove the sensor. It doesn't take long to poison them and they cease working if you are running leaded race gas.

[Yogi]

I have been working with Lyndon Wester for a couple years now. Just reciently (mid summer) we switched to higher octane tunes and are working optimizing the tune for the leaded 110 octane.

Lyndon has been great to work with and I can't recomend him enough!

His tune was defintaly one of the reasons we did so well at nationals last year (had 3rd dropped to 4th). This year we had some weather and driver issues :/

Lots of changes for 2011.

Alex

Thanks, Alex and good luck in 2011!   

[old goat]

I think one of the issue's with our cars is almost every tuner out there even Lyndon, is afraid to lean them out where they should be for fear of damage. The DI engine can run well up at 14 and does on BMW's and Audi's we don't push the envelope that far. I do NOT volunteer my engine to be a guniea pig, but have always tried to get Lyndon to lean out the tunes a bit.

[DrJones]

I think one of the issue's with our cars is almost every tuner out there even Lyndon, is afraid to lean them out where they should be for fear of damage. The DI engine can run well up at 14 and does on BMW's and Audi's we don't push the envelope that far. I do NOT volunteer my engine to be a guniea pig, but have always tried to get Lyndon to lean out the tunes a bit.

If any wants to donate a spare engine we could "Test the limits". But these little motors are not cheap! And I don't think Lyndon wants his name associated w/ blowin up motors.

[kennysabarese]

Lyndon runs richer than stock. I think the LNF guys on the HPT forum are running equal or leaner than stock.

They don't run as much boost as Lyndon's tunes either. Shabby could chime in here and fill in the details because I don't have their results memorized.

[tazz]

The LNF guys on HTP run richer .88-.90 Lambda in the 90-100% column.  Most are not too found of running as lean in the PE as the stock tune does @ 1 Lambda for almost the whole table except for the 100% column.  Starts with .95 down to .87 & 6000RPM in the 100% column while the rest of the table is 1 on the stock table.

[kennysabarese]

Hrm. When shabby saw my logs he was suprised how rich Lyndon was running my car.

[tazz]

IDK then?  Just what Ive seen though.

[tazz]

Though he might have been talking about the top end only since Lyndon has mine set & .84 from 5000Rpm's on.  While most do .87-.89 on the top end which is a bit leaner than Lyndon's.

[kennysabarese]

Maybe. I don't know

[Kelu]

If any wants to donate a spare engine we could "Test the limits". But these little motors are not cheap! And I don't think Lyndon wants his name associated w/ blowin up motors.

  I offered to Lyndon to do that, I have almost a complete engine in parts (block, crank, pistons, rods, full head, injectors, intake mani, etc) and I told him that since the engine is tuned it could blow at any time, might as blow it pushing it to the absolute max!

Instead of pushing the tune further, he told me to use race gas.... but a tank of that is 400$ here. TOO MUCH!

I am top 3 60ft times, but I am losing races because I lose power in 3rd and 4th gear.

[Arabas]

I am top 3 60ft times, but I am losing races because I lose power in 3rd and 4th gear.

r u loosing power or 3rd and 4th gears are too long?

[Kelu]

Doesn't matter that aspect here, stop dragging this topic into a tranny one.

[NormSky]

Your loosing the aerodynamic race near 100 mph. Fold in your side mirrors.