Topic: 2010 Solo Nats

[Critterman]

start doing your endurance exercises now, so you will be ready for next year, that way you both will be leaner and meaner.

[snaponbob]

start doing your endurance exercises now, so you will be ready for next year, that way you both will be leaner and meaner.

Well .................. there is THAT.

[elff]

Seriously Bob
It's why me and my sky are faster then everyone with a 3rd party Tune but still have the stock turbo. 
Those tuners with the stock turbo can't add enough horsepower to compensate for their mid sections
ChuckDoc is my only real competition
     
 

[Sol Asylum]

Avgas is designed with ingredients to resist icing (at altitudes) and other characteristics unique to flying.

I think you might be thinking of jet fuel there.  They add Prist to Jet A to resist icing and also some forms will kill microorganisms that can form in the trapped water in the fuel cells.  To the best of my knowledge there is no anti ice additives added to avgas though and that is why pilots have to sample their fuel before a flight.  Avgas has no alcohol in it but it is refined to a more pure state which allows it to vaporize easier which means you will burn it a lot faster then normal auto gas.  Been there done that we used to take the waste fuel from work and run it in boats, lawn mowers, etc.  We would have to readjust the mixture and then refuel almost twice as often.

Airplanes can have carb ice but that has nothing to do with what is in fuel and everything to do with temperature drops across the venturi and high humidity.  Been there done that too.

[snaponbob]

I think you might be thinking of jet fuel there.  They add Prist to Jet A to resist icing and also some forms will kill microorganisms that can form in the trapped water in the fuel cells.  To the best of my knowledge there is no anti ice additives added to avgas though and that is why pilots have to sample their fuel before a flight.  Avgas has no alcohol in it but it is refined to a more pure state which allows it to vaporize easier which means you will burn it a lot faster then normal auto gas.  Been there done that we used to take the waste fuel from work and run it in boats, lawn mowers, etc.  We would have to readjust the mixture and then refuel almost twice as often.

Airplanes can have carb ice but that has nothing to do with what is in fuel and everything to do with temperature drops across the venturi and high humidity.  Been there done that too.

If you have flown, you would know better. AV Gas is just that - gasoline. When I have discussed 110 (or even AV Gas) with others that either tune or use "fuels", it was clear to me that they were warning me away from AV Gas. "Back in the day", it seemed to be fine, but for reasons I forget I have been cautioned against it, so since I am smart enough to know when I'm not smart enough it seems wise to take the advice. Oh, and another thing is that the VP pumps are 12 miles from my house !!!!

I am aware of what jet fuel is - kerosene !!!!!!!!!!!! Just refined differently. K1 is heating oil, K2 is diesel fuel, K4, 5, etc., is jet fuel. 

Appreciate the input.

p.s. STILL "buzzing" after the near trophy experience.

[elff]

Will something like this really make a difference in AutoX?

[kennysabarese]

I moved the leaded fuel convo to another thread so people can more easily find info about it in the future.

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php?topic=5287

[snaponbob]

Will something like this really make a difference in AutoX?

Will some like WHAT make a difference?

[elff]

Higher Octane Gas and a Tune to match it?

[snaponbob]

Oh, good god yes. Over 91 octane, with 100 octane I netted only 15 whp, but over 60 wtq, and the engine pulls well past the normal fall off at 5400 rpm. It pulls hard to 6500 rpm when it used to run out of steam. Also, it pulls strongly to the 7000 rpm fuel cut off (61.8 mph gps reading). Completely different automobile now. I am sure my dyno chart is here somewhere. If not, I'll post it if requested. I wonder what the 110 will be like.

[Gentleman Jack]

Oh, good god yes. Over 91 octane, with 100 octane I netted only 15 whp, but over 60 wtq, and the engine pulls well past the normal fall off at 5400 rpm. It pulls hard to 6500 rpm when it used to run out of steam. Also, it pulls strongly to the 7000 rpm fuel cut off (61.8 mph gps reading). Completely different automobile now. I am sure my dyno chart is here somewhere. If not, I'll post it if requested. I wonder what the 110 will be like.

SOB,

did you have to re-tune specifically for the 100 or did the ECM do the adjusting on its own?  You may already have answered that, sorry if I missed it.

GJ

[kennysabarese]

Yes you have to tune for it. Bob has a thread with the dyno posted here:

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php?topic=4859.0

[snaponbob]

SOB,

did you have to re-tune specifically for the 100 or did the ECM do the adjusting on its own?  You may already have answered that, sorry if I missed it.

GJ

No probelm. Kenny linked to it in his post. The DOWN side of this is that you can NOT go back to 91-93 gas without retuning to the ocatne or you could destroy the engine due to heavy spark knock that is beyond what the computer may be able to adjust to. Also, 100 ocatne is VERY expensive, and when racing the LNF will consume it at a low single digit MPG. At $7-$8 per gallon, ouch. The answer is HPTuners with multiple tune files of Trifecta with two tunes. My car is going to become a trailer car, so no such issues with me.

[elff]

And your able to tap into that in AutoX?
I can see it being beneficial outside of AutoX, but I think our cars are fine as is for AutoX as evidenced by the local stock solstice constantly topping BSP guys.

[kennysabarese]

With those big ass wheels and tires bob is probably able to put down a lot more power.

If the tires are not at the verge of traction at all times you aren't going as fast as you can.

"German Porsche engineers often asked Donohue if the motor finally had enough power. His tongue-in-cheek answer was "it will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear." - Mark Donohue (Porsche Racing Driver)

[elff]

I see a guy on A6's locally at the limit of traction all the time beat cars [Not Pax time, but pure time and Pax time] in B/SP

Which is why I wonder if a mod like that can really be beneficial in AutoX. 

[kennysabarese]

rlhammon has said he really wants more power to keep up with the Evo's up in Michigan.

[Sol Asylum]

If you have flown, you would know better.

Actually Bob I have flown as I am a pilot and I also hold an A&P license and have worked doing aircraft maintenance for something like 15 years now. The big thing with avgas is the lead, and it will leave deposits all over if the engine doesn't run lean/hot enough to burn it off.  While training for my A&P I took classes on fuel and fuel systems so unless things have changed and I somehow missed the updates or CRS has set in I stand by my statements, but there is no reason for further debate/derailing of this thread.  

While I agree that avgas is not for the weekend racer it is possible to use if the equipment that you are running is set up for it.

And since I haven't already said so, good job on your accomplishment at the Nats.  

[snaponbob]

And your able to tap into that in AutoX?
I can see it being beneficial outside of AutoX, but I think our cars are fine as is for AutoX as evidenced by the local stock solstice constantly topping BSP guys.

When the toughest competition in B/SP are the Evo 8 and 9 running e85 and putting 375whp to the ground, the answer is YES, it is beneficial. The Kappas will absolutely out handle the Evos, but they are rocket sleds in a straight line. This is not to say that NOT having this sort of power is a bad thing, rather it is all about what an individual car owner wants. My goal is focused on Divisionals, National Tours, and Solo Nationals events. 

Disclosure; I am NOT inferring that people that bring the biggest stick to a fight is "correct". Everybody has different goals and targets. We all use our cars differently and for different reasons. The "right" answers are what is right for each person. Ultimately, if a person has a "perm-a-grin", then THAT is what counts.

[elff]

I looked at the graph.  Looks like you bumped up to 350lb/ft of torque.
Haven't 3rd party tuners bee able to get that with octane in the 91-92 range?

I guess that's a better way of asking my question.

I do understand your point, it's why, at the moment, the Big Wheel Turbo upgrades look better to me than the Turbo replacements.
AutoX needs the power low and immediate, vs racing or Drag Racing where high RPM power is needed.

Do you think your tune makes your car do 0-60 in 4.4 seconds?
Thats where the Evo's are at.

[kennysabarese]

Lyndon had a big wheel car in his garage and couldn't get any more horsepower out of it than his own car on his own dyno.

I feel another drift coming on.... Is it time for me to start ANOTHER drift avoidance thread

[Dave@DDMworks]

Lyndon had a big wheel car in his garage and couldn't get any more horsepower out of it than his own car on his own dyno.

I feel another drift coming on.... Is it time for me to start ANOTHER drift avoidance thread

There are other limiting factors that prevent the big wheel from making more horsepower, although we have seen some small gains with it, however you can get a lot more torque in the low end with it.

Thanks,
Dave

[elff]

I have not seen a tune from Lyndon on 91 octane that breaks 300hp.
We have seen that from everyone who has done a big wheel upgrade.
It's the top end that doesnt improve, due to the other limiting factors that Dave is talking about.

Still, Big wheel is a good upgrade for an AutoXer.  Loads more torque in the RPM range it's used in.
[Look at that, Drift brought back into topic]
 

[Uranium-238]

Still, Big wheel is a good upgrade for an AutoXer.  Loads more torque in the RPM range it's used in.

Yes, but it's not B-SP legal.

[snaponbob]

I looked at the graph.  Looks like you bumped up to 350lb/ft of torque.
Haven't 3rd party tuners bee able to get that with octane in the 91-92 range?

I guess that's a better way of asking my question.

I do understand your point, it's why, at the moment, the Big Wheel Turbo upgrades look better to me than the Turbo replacements.
AutoX needs the power low and immediate, vs racing or Drag Racing where high RPM power is needed.

Do you think your tune makes your car do 0-60 in 4.4 seconds?
Thats where the Evo's are at.

As far as I know, nobody with a stock turbo and 91-93 octane has hit 350 wtq. I have read some incredible garbage on some Cobalt forums, but it's just that. As for the output, I don't know what you were looking at. Here is the 2010 dyno pull with a 98 octane tune and gas. It clearly shows  "Max Torque" as 368.49 behind the logo. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

As one that must adhere to the SCCA rule book in any class I run in, in Street Prepared I can tough the body or internals of the turbo.

Reference the Evos', on E85 a 4.4 might be "slow". Fully tuned, they bend light in a straight line.    

In SCCA Solo any turbo mods or upgrades it will put your car in SSM.