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Author Topic: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?  (Read 19394 times)

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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 01:32:38 PM »
My issue with the LNF is reliability. Let's face it, it's a very complex engine, which means there is more that can go wrong compared to a pushrod LS series motor. Why not swap in something other than a LS V8? Well, because nothing else within a reasonable price/reliability range can match them for power to weight. Install an LS3 into a LNF kappa and you only gain 75 lbs over the stock motor. (2.4's would see a bigger weight increase, their motor is lighter.) That weight gain can be lowered with a good fiberglass or CF hood.

Honestly I wish GM had some sort of lightweight, lower displacement, rev happy V8. Or straight six/V6. I don't care really, but no 4-banger I've ever driven has had decent torque NA..

I can't believe anybody is talking about GM V8's and good sounding cars in the same sentence. To me, GM cars have always sounded like crap, want a good sounding V8 you have to look at Ford or Dodge.

If I have this car long enough for the LNF motor to give up the ghost I won't think twice about swapping in an LS motor.
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Offline wspohn

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 01:55:50 PM »
I can't believe anybody is talking about GM V8's and good sounding cars in the same sentence. To me, GM cars have always sounded like crap, want a good sounding V8 you have to look at Ford or Dodge.

I dare say there are some that will disagree..... :devil:

Agreed that the level of stress vs. simplicity favours the larger LS engines, but I still like the giant killer aspect of the 4 cylinder....

Disagree that the LNF doesn't have excellent small V8 level torque, but of course you did say NA, and I would have to agree that you aren't going to get torque without displacement if you are running an NA engine.
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Offline ChopTop

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 02:16:07 PM »
It would impossible for me to differentiate a GM, Ford, or Chrysler by the sound of the engine alone because I was always under the impression that its the exhaust system that's used to define the final sound.  In fact, even if you had the three powerplants with identical exhausts systems shrouded behind a black curtain I don't think I'd be able to tell you which one was GM, Ford, or Chrysler.  To further complicate it, I was also under the impression that a manufacturer does not just tune an engine for performance (as it relates to them being installed into a finished vehicle) but uses them to also fine tune a specific sound for a specific product.

About the only way I could even begin to understand how someone could identify manufacturers V8 engines from each other is if one manufacturer exclusively used an overhead cam design.  They in turn would have to point out to me why an overhead cam designs sounds inherently differently than the traditional pushrod valve engine.

Offline wspohn

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 02:40:27 PM »
To further complicate it, I was also under the impression that a manufacturer does not just tune an engine for performance (as it relates to them being installed into a finished vehicle) but uses them to also fine tune a specific sound for a specific product.

About the only way I could even begin to understand how someone could identify manufacturers V8 engines from each other is if one manufacturer exclusively used an overhead cam design.  They in turn would have to point out to me why an overhead cam designs sounds inherently differently than the traditional pushrod valve engine.

I think you are quite right - the exhaust system has more to do with sound than anything else. I couldn't tell one make of V8 from another I recall that the Mustang Bullitt version was carefully tailored to sound like the original car used in the movie, which must have been challenging as the new engine wasn't a 390.

As for head and combustion chamber effecting sound, I can tell you from personal experience that this is certainly so, as I have raced cars with both MG pushrod motors and a DOHC version of that motor (same bore, stroke, etc. but hemi head) and they sound very different - the OHC version sounding far better.

The other thing I can tell you (again, from years at the track) is that a single plane crankshaft V8 (normally used only in race engines) sounds much different from a regular crank V8!
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2010, 03:12:44 PM »
Different engines do sound different, exhaust or not. Compare the regular 3-valve 4.6 V8's from a Mustang GT to the 4-valve version of the Mach 1/Cobra. Cam, valves, exhaust, headers, firing order, H or x pipe, they all play a part.
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Offline Yamatr3

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2010, 03:28:14 PM »
This is one of those subjects that will never be solved on an internet forum but it is good forum fodder.

Offline elff

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2010, 03:42:15 PM »
Yup

To me the draw of a V8 in our cars is having an engine with more power and less to worry about.
There is lots of documentation of a variety of PITA problems with the overall parts under the hood that cause our kappas to go into limp mode which cause a ton of headaches.  Troubleshooting involves removing everything and putting the car back to stock which we all know is BS.
Combined with the general lack of knowledge of our engine by the people doing the warranty work.
U-238s issues is the one glaring easy example, but there are more.

If you swap in a V8 and eliminate the whole turbo system, you actually simplify the setup, while adding serious always available no lag oomph and even though it's not the stock engine, if you do run into issues that are beyond your skill, the number of easily accessible people who can fix it, seem to be greater than the guessanics who just throw parts indiscriminately at most problems.

So the debate I have been fighting inside my head is
Go with a setup that in reality will be close to 10k in upgrades[Intercooler, Piping, Meth, engine internals] for the 2.0 and introduce more points of failure
or
Go with a setup that costs almost twice as much with less potential headaches

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2010, 04:09:58 PM »
Hey don't jinx me, the check engine's been out for two months now...

Honestly I think my issues were just compounded by a dealership that didn't know what they were doing. That being said, I still haven't had Joe put the tune back on my car. (Not much point now that it's winter anyway.)
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Offline Buzzardt

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2010, 04:26:27 PM »
I stand by my original post.
Plus if you are under 40 you wouldn't understand any way.

Sturring the pot :kwh:

Offline NormSky

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2010, 05:36:01 PM »
LS3 is about 250 lbs heavier than LSJ or twice the weight installed compared to the 2.0 LSJ. That includes about 60 lbs for extra exhaust manifold to muffler and extra fluids for trans and engine.  Add more if you want 6-speed transmission

Yamaha, cover your ears.  :)

LSJ:

"....The block was 48 lbs, the head was 27 lbs, crank was 28 lbs, pistons were like 8 or 9 lbs, rods were like 13. The motor its self I'd say was 110-130 lbs."


http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/general-cobalt-68/lsj-weight-120134/

231 lbs  LSJ Dressed minus clutch, intake/TB, and turbo/manifold.

http://www.outlawdragbike.com/showthread.php?270-Ecotec-LSJ-Engine-and-parts-weight-in

500 lbs just for LS3 minus two(2) cats and dual exhausts.

http://paceperformance.com/i-5135832-19244549-gmpp-ls376-480-hp-ls3-engine.html

370 for 3.6 used in Camaro/CTS.

http://paceperformance.com/i-5135832-19244549-gmpp-ls376-480-hp-ls3-engine.html

We really have the best of all worlds now!
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Offline NormSky

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2010, 05:39:51 PM »
Can't edit from the mobile:

370 lbs 3.6 Camaro/CTS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine
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Offline Yamatr3

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2010, 07:46:56 PM »
Seems like we are starting to rehash this thread.  http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f65/v8-weight-imbalance-theories-debunked-60618/

As I said before, this topic is forum fodder.  It's all been said before.  The 2.0 turbo guys are still 2.0 turbo guys and the V8 guys are still V8 guys.  No one will ever convince the other group, so the whole discussion is pointless LOL!!


Norm, I don't need to cover my ears.  I built what I wanted to build and you built what you wanted to build.  I really don't give a crap if my car is 140 or 200 pounds heavier.  I have what I like and it's a damn nice car.   

As I stated on page one, it comes down to passion, build what you think is cool!!


Offline jlab8

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2010, 09:08:17 PM »
LS3 is about 250 lbs heavier than LSJ or twice the weight installed compared to the 2.0 LSJ. That includes about 60 lbs for extra exhaust manifold to muffler and extra fluids for trans and engine.  Add more if you want 6-speed transmission

Odd how my car with the LS3 and T-56 only gained 150lbs while @ Mallett's shop.

Offline ChopTop

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2010, 09:17:40 AM »
I didn't intend this thread to be a V8 debate, but the process a person uses for deciding to replace a perfectly good engine with another powerplant.  Since I tend to think analytical (read; anal) I guess I was wrong in thinking it was possible in separating the two issues.

Offline Brazen17

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2010, 11:08:13 AM »
I didn't intend this thread to be a V8 debate, but the process a person uses for deciding to replace a perfectly good engine with another powerplant.  Since I tend to think analytical (read; anal) I guess I was wrong in thinking it was possible in separating the two issues.

You are the only one who can really determine if it is justifiable or not. Just list the pro's and cons on a sheet of paper and decide if it is what you want. You can get V8 power from the 2.0 but as for as long term reliablilty, well, it's just too early to tell. There are some guys running some pretty big HP 2.0's and we will just have to wait and see how they hold up.
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Offline elff

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2010, 11:16:20 AM »
ChopTop

Like Brazen said,  it's all a matter of what you want. 

I've done it with a jeep. 
in 2003 I bought a brand new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Edition
I have put more mods into the Jeep than the jeep cost to buy at this point.

My jeep buddies and I created a mental disorder we call

Fawkwithititis

Once you get Fawkwithititis, you just can't leave anything alone.

Offline Kenny

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2010, 12:16:46 PM »
I am coming in late, but I think the 2.0 2.4 for swap argument is clear. Almost everyone who has a GXP has changed EVERYTHING that makes the GXP different from the NA apart from the engine.

If you don't have a car already, get a 2.4.
If you already have a GXP, it's a harder call to make. Depends on the price you can sell and buy at.
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Offline jlab8

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2010, 03:38:12 PM »
If I had a GXP, I wouldn't consider pulling the LNF for a LS-V8, but I bought a NA car specifically to do a swap in.

Offline GXPinKC

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2010, 03:56:16 PM »
And you did it the right way, from the information in your posts alphajesse.  Awesome ride and the "08 Mallett" speaks it's own language.  Off topic, but please forgive.  If you are planning to attend the Austin NASSM, would like to see your ride!

I just went back and re-reviewed your post #11 in the thread "Re: Open your Hood and take a picture of your engine bay".  Very sweet job!  The "08 Mallett" looks right at home!!!  :thumbs: :2c: :usa: :yay:

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« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 04:07:33 PM by GXPinKC »
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Offline elff

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2010, 04:07:06 PM »
Still have stock size Good Year RSA's with a V8?

Offline NormSky

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2010, 04:13:42 PM »
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Offline elff

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »
Nice writeup!

Offline jlab8

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2010, 05:29:49 PM »
217 lbs without AC and with stock 5-speed.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/06q1/mallett_ls2_v-8_solstice-specialty_file


Could be the particular options, etc on mine, but my #s are based on the same set of cornerweighting scales being used pre- and post-conversion on my car.

Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2010, 11:50:02 AM »
How much is a replacement LNF?

Offline NormSky

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Re: How would (do?) you justify replacing 2.0 for LS3?
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2010, 01:05:40 PM »
LE5 2.4 goes for $399-599 for complete engine take out used. Some on the big forum bought extra engine and transmission when adding a turbo to the 2.4...still have them since buying them as back in 2006!  :)
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