Topic: The Intercooler Thread

[wspohn]

I agree that $500 is below the others. Next closest would be Werks at $625.

[Sly Bob]

So that list is the current GM Powertrain warranty, which has changed since 2009.  You did inspire me to look in the glovebox, where it turned out I still had the warranty booklet.  The Charge Air Cooler, its fan, and a whole bunch of other stuff are actually covered under the emissions warranty for some reason. Tony read it and agreed with me, so right now they're looking at it so they can order the parts for my covered repair.  Whew- that was a thousand dollars I wasn't looking to spend right now!  Thanks, GJ!!!

I love happy endings.   

[Gentleman Jack]

In this case, with all other engine parts on Reed's car stock and no tune, I'm inclined to say getting the free replacement from GM is the way to go.  If Reed had some inclination of building power later on, I can absolutely see the benefits of taking this opportunity, and might then let GM swap the IC, then order a Hahn or similar unit, swap them and then sell off the stock IC.  At minimum, the stock IC would cover the cost of someone swapping the two ICs at the upcoming MMM9. (If GM would just give the replacement part to Reed, I'd say that's even better, but they never do that from my experience.)  From what I know, Reed does not have any plans for Go Faster goodies at this point.  As such, my initial thought that GM takes care of their problem stands.

GJ
painfully well thought out

[reedred]

Enough intercoolers have ballooned up that I'm aware of it and realized what was going on before it completely failed and I found coolant all over the garage.  Given my low level of technical expertise, I'd already come to the same conclusion that elff did about the factory part.  Tony the service writer suspects it failed because of the fan issue not cooling it properly so there is a valid possibility that it's really just a symptom and could've otherwise lasted the life of the car.

I did consider asking if they would install the Hahn piece instead, but decided against that for two reasons: it's not a drop in replacement so I'd have to ask them to make modifications, and for $600 I can get a pretty good hooker and a decent amount of blow.  While upgrading would be ideal, their decision to replace the entire cooling system at no cost to me was too good to pass up.  If it only lasts another 40K miles I can always go aftermarket later.  As GJ pointed out I have the stock tune, no go faster mods whatsoever, and no plans for any, so the factory piece should suffice.

[ihawk95]

Enough intercoolers have ballooned up that I'm aware of it and realized what was going on before it completely failed and I found coolant all over the garage.  Given my low level of technical expertise, I'd already come to the same conclusion that elff did about the factory part.  Tony the service writer suspects it failed because of the fan issue not cooling it properly so there is a valid possibility that it's really just a symptom and could've otherwise lasted the life of the car.

I did consider asking if they would install the Hahn piece instead, but decided against that for two reasons: it's not a drop in replacement so I'd have to ask them to make modifications, and for $600 I can get a pretty good hooker and a decent amount of blow.  While upgrading would be ideal, their decision to replace the entire cooling system at no cost to me was too good to pass up.  If it only lasts another 40K miles I can always go aftermarket later.  As GJ pointed out I have the stock tune, no go faster mods whatsoever, and no plans for any, so the factory piece should suffice.

OMFG that is freaking funny, right there! 

Or you could save some $$$ and get a cheap hooker and a shot of penicillin. 

[Bill Hahn Jr]

 Mr. Hahn, I very much think that Hahn racecraft is making the best decision. I think that offering a HP Tuners package or even Trifecta will better fit what you guys represent. I remember looking at the BSR back in Aug of 2008 when I took delivery of my Cobalt SS/TC and was very close to buying it. I have since moved on from that car and now have a Sky Redline. I have been using HP tuners and couldn't be happier at the simplicity of using it for logging and being able to monitor parameters that normally I wouldn't be able to see. It just feels so reassuring having this software coupled with a reputable tuner.

 Glad to see you coming on our forums a lot lately 

Thanks for your support!  By the way, you can call me Bill, but I do also enjoy the more formal Mr. Hahn, as respectful behavior is often so lacking in today's world

You've hit the nail right on the head.  We've used HPTuners for years in some applications, and will soon offer it as an option on our turbosystems, as well as a stand-alone product.  We are currently involved with Trifecta as well, as they've assisted in developing superb tunes for our new Super 20G Turbo Upgrades for LNF (more on this soon!). 

The BSR Tuner was a strong player for us for many years, and our relationship with them was most fruitful.  However, time marches onward, and few places does it move faster than in modern electronics.

[Gentleman Jack]

(must remember to call him Mr. Hahn if I need help with something.....)

Damn,
Did I say that out loud?

[Sol Asylum]

(must remember to call him Mr. Hahn if I need help with something.....)

Damn,
Did I say that out loud?

Nope you didn't say it at all.

You typed it.

[Critterman]

Don't worry no one heard you.

[SHiNY]

Don't worry no one heard you.

That's because no one actually listens!

[Bill Hahn Jr]

Hahn states that their IC gives you up to 27WHP. click on  link for dyno runs.

http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/SolsticeGXPRedline/GXP%20Redline%20Intercooler%20Sell%20Page.htm

They also forget to mention that in fact it will give you exactly zero more power on an 'otherwise untuned car' as soon as the ECM learns down again, some time between 1/2 hour and 1/2 week later.

So to all the guys with stock tunes, fuggedaboutit!

But Bill!!!! Who has an untuned Kappa around here these days? 

When I first saw this exchange, I had to chuckle, as we did get a bit caught out on this one.  In revising information for our new website, this page will definitely get some updating.  But allow me to elaborate a bit...and while some of this information is definitely Intercooler 101, I do strive to to write for all possible readers, so you advanced gearheads may have to suffer through some elementaries here.  B-air with me

The dyno results stated were in fact genuine, with back-to-back comparison of OEM intercooler to our Hahn HP Intercooler.  However, this was very early on in our development process, and the full capabilities of the GM/Bosch PCM to "learn down" the airflow improvement of our HP Intercooler were not yet fully understood.  Nonetheless, the difference in power was pretty breathtaking in light of the fact that with no other changes, we did in fact pick up 27 WHP, indicating a substantial improvement in airflow/reduction in restriction, as well as significantly reduced intake air temperatures (IAT's).

Now, while it's undoubtedly true that the maximum airflow achievable would soon be learned back down to stock as wspohn indicates, there is a bit more to the story.  We're confident that even on an untuned car, there will still be more than a zero power and performance improvement.  Turbocharger responsiveness is improved, so more power is available at lower RPM and throttle position; actually, this is one of the most common feedbacks we get on this intercooler.  As a result, more power is available at moderate RPM as compared to stock.  Additionally, lower IAT's lead to more aggressive ignition timing being learned by the PCM, which also adds more power and improved responsiveness across the RPM band.   So, while the maximum HP/airflow may not change much, perhaps just a few HP with a stock tune, there will be other noticeable, seat-of-the-pants perceivable improvements not expressed purely in that aspect of max power alone.  The additional engine longevity afforded by the cooler IAT's is also a nice bonus, especially in hot temperatures where the stock intercooler can be highly taxed, and let's face it: unless one lives in Alaska, one's Kappa sees a LOT of warm-weather operation!

A side note: in hot conditions, many otherwise-stock Kappas do not even achieve the full rated stock power, for there are limits to just how much more boost the system will add to compensate, especially when high IAT's also conspire to further reduce available ignition timing via knock detection.  Under such conditions, Kappas equipped with our HP Intercooler can realize MUCH more power than they would be otherwise be able to with a stock intercooler, even with a stock tune.

As a further side note to MARVIC's comment:  Right you are!  And of course, at such higher power levels, the stock intercooler is even more taxed, with even higher IAT's and more knock detection/timing retard, and significantly holds back a lot of tuned Kappas whose owners mistakenly attribute such greatly reduced power strictly to poor climatic conditions.  No tuned car should ever limit itself to the stock intercooler if the owner is interested in not only the best possible power, but the least amount of duress on his/her engine due to excessive intake heat.

[redlinedude]

Thanks go to Jesse and Bill Hahn Jr. at Hahn Racecraft for the great customer service!! Jesse talked to BSR and I received a one year tuning warranty. This means I can connect my tuner to BSR for and download any updates or fixes I may need for a year. I was able to connect to BSR server today and receive the updates my car needed to work properly. I plugged the PPC Tuner in and now I have about 40 more horses and 23 psi again I know my BSR tune is outdated but other than a K&N air filter my car is completely stock so for now this tuner suits my needs. In the next 6-8 months I plan on upgrading my turbo, downpipe, intercooler and exhaust. By that time I will need a new tune and lots of parts which i'm sure Hahn Racecraft will be able to assist me with. Thanks again Hahn Racecraft for the great customer service !!

[Gentleman Jack]

Hahn edumacation. I'm learned better more now.


People get caught up in peak HP numbers.  Great explanation on why that can be flawed thinking.  I wonder if Hahn can make a human IC for my long runs on hot days....

[miller11386]

HP is just a way to quantify it. The key question is, when you put the skinny pedal down, does it make you smile?

[Arabas]

would an ic be more effective if it had a fan mounted on it and staying on all the time?

[Bill Hahn Jr]

would an ic be more effective if it had a fan mounted on it and staying on all the time?

In some cases, yes, but even the strongest electric fans are hard pressed to reproduce the air blast and quantity that the car traveling at, say, 60 MPH can provide on its own.   Electric fans, even on cooling system radiators, are primarily intended to address periods of slow or no car movement.  Once you're up and running, the car's speed takes care of the needed airflow over the radiator and/or intercooler.

This inherently works in our favor in that the more heat one puts into the intercoooler, the faster one tends to be going, and thus the better the cooling effect.  Taken another way...you can't put heat into the intercooler while the car is standing still or moving very slowly.  You have to be working the turbo hard enough to be producing sufficient intake heat  that would then need be dissipated, which typically means 10PSI or more boost.  As such, the only time the intercooler needs cooling effect from ambient air flow over the core is when you are already moving fast enough for it to work efficiently. 

[Arabas]

thx a lot for your reply Bill!!
very reasonable and very easy to understand!! 

[kennysabarese]

Sky888 has (or had at some point) sprayers on his IC to help cool it down even more. So external methods can help. Especially in the case where you don't have enough room in the car to fit an IC large enough for the power you are making.

[Arabas]

thx Kenny, i remember we had this discussion some time ago.
i am not looking for more power at the moment, just trying to find out which are the practical ways to get the coldest air possible into the engine.

[Critterman]

Move to the Artic?

[Arabas]

Move to the Artic?

Greek summer is exactly the opposite of the Arctic, so that's why i am curious about practical ways.
a downside of the arctic is that there are no sand beaches...

[Dave@DDMworks]

would an ic be more effective if it had a fan mounted on it and staying on all the time?

FYI - the only time we have seen this as a benefit is on a couple drift cars that we worked on. The reason it worked well on those, is because the cars are sideways for a lot of time, the air entering the front grill is reduced, which reduced the air going through the intercooler, causing IAT's to climb pretty quick. With the fans in place (several pretty large Spal fans) the IAT's could be kept down.

Otherwise, like Bill said, once you are moving, the fans start to become a restriction to the flow of air through the intercooler/radiator.

[kennysabarese]

thx Kenny, i remember we had this discussion some time ago.
i am not looking for more power at the moment, just trying to find out which are the practical ways to get the coldest air possible into the engine.

I didn't mean you put the coolers on to get more power. I meant that if you are making big power with a bigger turbo, you need an IC so large it doesn't fit into the space we have. So by getting additional cooling via water or C02 spray, you can make up for the lack of size.

[Sly Bob]

 Looked at my inter cooler when I had the bumper off the other day and it's getting beat up with rocks. There maybe a new inter cooler in my future sooner rather than later.

[wspohn]

Otherwise, like Bill said, once you are moving, the fans start to become a restriction to the flow of air through the intercooler/radiator.

Yup. I always run a fan on the race cars because we used to get delayed in pregrid and some of them don't like to restart once they are hotter than heck sitting idling in the sun. Always gives you a good feeling to just reach out and flick a switch and sit comfortably while those around you without fans start uttering muted (by the helmets) screams at the track crew to get things on the road.  I gladly sacrifice any small reduction in cooling caused by the fan blocking air at speed for that sense of security in pregrid!