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Author Topic: 3" pipings.......  (Read 14833 times)

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Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 02:04:23 PM »
yup he did.   But not sure if he played on both MALTs and DALs.

gmtech worked on those and seems to be happy with the results

ZZP played with those, and I believe they got 8 horses.

I wonder if they did A-B-A testing to get that or not, as in the A-B-A testing we did we could not show any gains consistently.

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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 02:37:41 PM »
I haven't seen anywhere that displacement has anything to do with charge tube size....  

me too.

I mentioned engine displacement about my compound build since Tom mentioned about engine displament and piping sizes.   



I am going with 3" pipes to avoid any bottlenecks on my set-up since the WERKS Race IC already have 3" inlet/outlet.   Plus with high boost set-up, the 3" pipings will help avoid pressure drop.  If I have too much restrictions and bottlenecks, that will cause in pressure drop.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 02:40:55 PM by SKY888 »
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 02:47:18 PM »
Honestly. I would just find out what other big turbo cars use, and copy them.

Check out the 1,400HP ecotec. He's using a air to water IC, but you can see the pipe at the inlet of the intake manifold is not that large.

http://gmtunersource.com/racertech/ecotec-drag-engine
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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 02:48:30 PM »
I wonder if they did A-B-A testing to get that or not, as in the A-B-A testing we did we could not show any gains consistently.



I don't think they went A-B-A dave.

if the bigger TB didnt cause any decrease in WHP......that will still be better for me compared to the stock TB.  

Again, I just dont want to have any bottlenecks on my set-up and avoid pressure drops
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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 02:50:58 PM »
Honestly. I would just find out what other big turbo cars use, and copy them.

Check out the 1,400HP ecotec. He's using a air to water IC, but you can see the pipe at the inlet of the intake manifold is not that large.

http://gmtunersource.com/racertech/ecotec-drag-engine



seriously, all the turbocharged v-8s and v10s guys that I spoke with are using 3.5"-4" pipes already  :)

I think the big turbo corvette of BTF is using big asss pipes too.....
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2011, 02:54:00 PM »
Actually. In the GM ecotec book it shows the thing right there. Says it's a 90mm throttle body. That's 3.5 inches.

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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2011, 03:06:53 PM »
is that LE5 TB?

the LE5 is only 3" not 3.5"
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2011, 03:09:09 PM »
I highly doubt it would be the LE5 throttle body. Download the PDF. Tons of info there...
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Offline scoobyless

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2011, 03:14:09 PM »
And what is the compressor outlet of your largest turbo?  While running a bigger pipe drops restrictions, it also increases the area that needs to be pressurized.  Personally, on my gt4088r STi build, I chose 2.5" pipe all the way through.  To get a "right" answer you'd have to have a good amount of knowledge in thermal dynamics and lots of free time since you'd have to factor in all your variables, which are different than the next person.  

FWIW I believe full-race also used 2.5" piping on the same setup, and they know a bit about turbo builds.

And yes, I know you have a compound turbo build, which is just another variable, in the end it's still forced induction.
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Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2011, 03:51:41 PM »
is that LE5 TB?

the LE5 is only 3" not 3.5"

Actually the stock LE5 throttle body is 2.75" OD with a 2.5" throttle plate.
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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2011, 04:01:51 PM »
with a compound turbo set-up, it will not be the big turbo's compressor outlet, it's actually the smaller turbo's compressor outlet that will be connected to the charge pipe going to IC.  

Outlet size of the gt2871r is only 2"

I really don't care about the increase of area to be pressurized.    Once the turbo starts spooling even if not full boost, the difference between pressurizing the area of a bigger pipe VS. smaller pipe....will be milliseconds.   That difference will be more minute.....once the system is in full boost.    

But the pressure drop is what's important for me, and really my priority.

Yes, full race on some of their cars are currently using 2.5" pipes some are 3".   They are very knowledgeable, and I talked to the owner Geoff a couple of times already.  Very cool guy and helpful.    But you have to consider what most of their market is..........1.6 to 2.5 liter cars.......civics to evos/subarus.

There's a good reason why turbocharged 3-6 liter engines.....use bigger charge pipings.     I'm still trying to decipher that reason.....and if there's science/math behind them.

Like what I mentioned, once the secondary turbo spools at 15psi, the engine already acts as a 4 liter, and once I hit 30psi, the engine already acts as a 6 liter.

Yeah, they're all forced induction, but there's still a difference

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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2011, 04:03:06 PM »
thanks for the confirmation DAVE!
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2011, 04:08:58 PM »
888 don't you have contacts at Garrett? Since they wrote the guide on it they should be able to help.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_optimization.html#Charge%20Tubing%20&%20Charge-Air-Cooler
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Offline Kelu

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2011, 04:12:33 PM »
Is all about airflow ;)

Don't ignore the pressurized volume, I suppose you don't want that GT28 to make 15psi at 4500-5000rpm, right? ;)
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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2011, 04:18:12 PM »
unfortunately, Kenny I dont :(


The reason why I don't want to use 2.5" since, I don't want the pipes from going 2.5" then will open up to 3" going to IC.........then will shrink again to 2.5" after the outlet of IC.    

the air velocity will be faced with many restrictions and increase of friction.....and flow turbulence....................which will cause pressure drop.....lots of inneficiency going on.

I will be more comfortable in just going 3" all the way.....

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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2011, 04:20:54 PM »
Is all about airflow ;)

Don't ignore the pressurized volume, I suppose you don't want that GT28 to make 15psi at 4500-5000rpm, right? ;)

uhmmmmm....I already seen lots of dyno tests, pressure drop tests, and boost/rpm comparisson between a BIG IC and SMALL IC (area to be pressurized)..........and none of them show a difference in spool time...........
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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2011, 04:48:32 PM »
Hey guys. I just realized that the answer is sitting in front of my face the whole time. I looked at it 100 times, and I didn't notice it until the 101st.

You have to take your projected airflow, convert it to CFM then calculate the velocity to find the optimal tube size. The velocity is based on the CFM and the pipe size (area)

So we're gunna say if your goal is 700hp you wanna do 70lbs/min of flow. (pretty sure your big turbo is capable of way more than that)

Volumetric Flow Rate (CFM) = Mass Flow (lbs/min) / Air Density (lbs/ft3)

Air density at sea level is 0.076

so 70/0.076 = 921CFM

Then to choose the pipe you wanna find the velocity. The formula is:

Velocity (ft/min) = Volumetric Flow rate (CFM) / Area (ft2)

Then there is a chart here that shows the areas of pipe - IGNORE the red circle

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for 3" you use .049 for area

so 920/.049 = 18,755 then divide by 60 to convert from minutes to seconds and you get 312.

That means 3" is actually a little small for that power level.

If you do it again for 3.25" you get 264. Which is on target. 3.5" is 228

So there you have it.

I have no idea if this affects throttle bodies.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:53:51 PM by Kenny »
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Offline SKY888

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2011, 04:55:54 PM »
Hi Kenny, I actually saw that formula after you posted the link of garrett.

I was also wondering, why you didnt say anything til now!

The reason why I didnt bring it up is because, I was also looking for a math/science why those bigger engines use bigger pipes.   I guess using this equation, is the match/science behind their logic.

Thanks for the computation.   I am actually hoping to get 70-75 lbs/min on my set-up.   I'm actually not looking for 600hp (thats a sandbag number for my project).  I want a solid 600whp :)

I will not go w/ 3.25" not 3.5"

I think 3" will be enough for me.....

thanks again.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 05:18:00 PM by SKY888 »
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Offline scoobyless

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2011, 05:03:05 PM »
It's all about responsiveness, the dreaded term "turbo lag" comes to mind, something that doesn't show up in a dyno chart.  The only thing that shows up on a dyno chart is boost threshold.  

Use smooth reducers/expanders and turbulence shouldn't be a huge issue, could even do it right at the i/c where there is already a mess of turbulence.

I'd be less worried about this piping size since it's negligible unless the know-it-all's of compound charging say different, and more worried about tuning you intake manifold to operate most effectively in the rpm range you want.  And at the same time you can switch to pretty much any dbw tb you want if your making a new mani.  But that's a whole different can of worms with lots of scientific theory.

The math looks right on the equation, but didn't someone say that the le5 tb was only 2.5ID? So there is still a bottleneck right as air goes into the intake mani

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2011, 05:05:06 PM »
I saw those formulas for a long time. But for some reason when I looked at the chart I didn't see how the variables fit into it.

Your lbs/min is what you need to determine. I just picked 70 because it's about 10 per 100 hp for pump gas. But in your case you will probably not need to flow as much air to hit your goal since you will have meth and stuff. So 3" is probably fine to hit your goal.
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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »
It's all about responsiveness, the dreaded term "turbo lag" comes to mind, something that doesn't show up in a dyno chart.  The only thing that shows up on a dyno chart is boost threshold. 

Use smooth reducers/expanders and turbulence shouldn't be a huge issue, could even do it right at the i/c where there is already a mess of turbulence.

I'd be less worried about this piping size since it's negligible unless the know-it-all's of compound charging say different, and more worried about tuning you intake manifold to operate most effectively in the rpm range you want.  And at the same time you can switch to pretty much any dbw tb you want if your making a new mani.  But that's a whole different can of worms with lots of scientific theory.

The math looks right on the equation, but didn't someone say that the le5 tb was only 2.5ID? So there is still a bottleneck right as air goes into the intake mani


its 2.75.....w/ a 2.5 plate...
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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2011, 05:10:59 PM »
I saw those formulas for a long time. But for some reason when I looked at the chart I didn't see how the variables fit into it.

Your lbs/min is what you need to determine. I just picked 70 because it's about 10 per 100 hp for pump gas. But in your case you will probably not need to flow as much air to hit your goal since you will have meth and stuff. So 3" is probably fine to hit your goal.

70-75 lbs/min will be Christmas for me Kenny! :)

That's the ultimate goal.

but if I can only go 60-65 lbs/min......I'll still take it!

I really can't go VERY high in whp/tq anyways........since my clutch can only handle only up to around 550 wtq anyways....
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 05:18:44 PM by SKY888 »
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Offline Kelu

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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2011, 05:11:23 PM »
I am actually hoping to get 700-750lbs/min on my set-up.  
 :slap: Antonio I didn't know you want to build a space shuttle from you Sky  :lol:

All this math made a big storm in your head, wake up, you want 70-75 lbs/min for 600whp  :slap:
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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2011, 05:15:19 PM »
with the Sky's drivetrain loss Augie.............that 70-75 lbs/min is still not that high :)

The gt4094 can actually go up to 80 lbs/min......
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Re: 3" pipings.......
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2011, 05:17:13 PM »
oh shit.......... Augie....my bad, I'm talking on the phone while typing here!  lol

I cant multi task ..

I'll correct those #s ASAP!
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