Topic: LIPSTICK's Port Injection and Secondary Fuel Rail

[SKY888]

If you're trying to flow more than 70 lb/min, and trying to get more than 600whp, unfortunately our stock fuel system will not be able to support it.

Even if we can raise our fuel pressure to 2800psi thru trifecta tune/HPT tune, the stock fuel system, still have a hard time.

Water/Meth kits are nice, and will help cool the air and prevents detonation.  If you use 100% pure meth, it will help add more fuel, but it can only do so much even if you add 4 injectors on the manifold.    I was  talking to Chance from Devil's own, and he advised me that if I really want to add more fuel during high boost/more air...........water/meth spray is not the way to go.

So after consulting with different LNF tuners, I ended up going with PORT INJECTION using a secondary fuel rail.   I will also use an additional fuel cell so I don't have to tap from the stock fuel tank line.

This will make sure that I will have enough fuel injection during high boost/more air during high rpms.

I would like to give thanks to KELU....since he directed me with the NX Safe fuel system (fuel cell) last year, which made me helped with my planning

I would like to give THANKS to these companies for their support of my compound turbo build:


www.rossmachineracing.com  = -8 fuel rail, brackets, and bungs

www.rceng.com = set of 70 lb RC engineering injectors

www.nitrousexpress.com =  SAFE fuel system w/ high output fuel pump and adjustable fuel pressure regulator

www.splitsec.com = Additional Injectors Controller and R4 Software

[Kelu]

  cool mod, I really want to see how this will perform.

How it will be commanded?

No need to point for my sharing, I got tons from you

[SKY888]

look at the very last photo bro

Thats the stand alone fuel controller for the extra injectors and laptop software.....

[Kelu]

I saw the picture with the controller but I was asking what will be the criteria: boost?

[SKY888]

We will be using an exterior 4 or 5 bar sensor


anyways, here is the full description:

The AIC1 is a laptop programmable additional injector controller that is available in several different versions. Options include internal absolute or gauge pressure sensors which are programmable up to 16 and 26 psi of boost respectively. Options are also available for low or high impedance injectors. Up to four injectors can be controlled. The AIC1 is programmed with the Split Second R4 engine management software.

The AIC1 is generally used with engines that have been converted to forced induction with the addition of turbochargers or superchargers. The AIC1 gives the user a convenient way to set the fuel mixture for proper air/fuel ratio in the boost region. The approach of running additional injectors is well suited for late model applications with Electronic Control Units (ECUs) that have very tight control over fuel mixture. The fuel system can operate completely stock in the vacuum region and the AIC1 can provide the additional fuel required in boost.

Additional injection schemes fall into one of two categories. In injector-per-cylinder or port injection there is an additional injector for each cylinder. This is recommended for high boost applications of 14 psi or more. The other scheme is upstream injection where the additional injectors are at the throttle body or in the intake tube.

In upstream injection applications, it is critical that the AIC1 is driven from a true tach signal. A true tach signal has a pulse for each cylinder ignition event. For example on a 6-cylinder engine the true tach signal will have 3 pulses per crank revolution. For optimum fuel distribution we recommend the 2-stroke engine setting. To get the correct RPM reading select one half the actual number of cylinders. For example when using a true tach on a 6-cylinder engine, use the 3-cylinder, 2-stroke setting. Any version of the AIC1 can be special ordered with the data acquisition option.

[spartan]

Wow.  This is becoming as technically sophisticated as a NASA project.   

[SKY888]

Wow.  This is becoming as technically sophisticated as a NASA project.  

Uhhhhmmmm, not really bro!.  
Actually both my friends BTF and Greaseyjockey have been running a secondary fuel rail for about 2-3 years now, using microsquirt as their fuel controller.    

ZZP also did the same thing about a month ago.  I'm not sure what fuel controller though.

But all of them tapped from the main gas line, which works fine.........but later on, if you really PUSH it, might cause some fuel delivery issues for both fuel rails.

That's why I have my secondary fuel cell, with its own fuel pump and adjustable fpr ....just to make sure both fuel rails are getting enough  

If you look at other car forums, they either upgrade to larger injectors, or add port injection.    Since I haven't seen any bigger DI injectors for our application, Port injection is the route I'm taking.

[spartan]

It seems like an impressive work around.  My only concern would be that the two fuel feeding systems would always talk to each other in near real time.  But hey, I don't know much about building engines, just a little about the brittleness of IT systems that get too interdependent.

This is truly amazing...a compound turbo on a 4 cylinder making that much HP/TQ.  You have really been tenacious in this pursuit.

[SKY888]

thank you.

The secondary fuel rail will have its own brain.    Its very programmable and will have all these fuel maps/tables/etc.   It will only activate during high rpm/boost.   During normal driving (unless activated), car will only be using the DI injectors.   So the car still get great fuel economy while cruising or going to work

We are planning that at high rpm/boost,  more than half of the fuel will be coming from the Port Injectors and less than half will be supplied by the DI injectors.  It will really depend on the tuning and what we see during that time.....

so we'll see.......

[snaponbob]

That's nucking futs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SKY888]

That's nucking futs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since I already added a secondary fuel system, it is READY and CAPABLE to run full E85 with no fuel delivery issues

but we'll see.......what route we'll be using.......

stay tuned....

[kennysabarese]

One thing to note about fuel delivery. If you haven't heard yet, the 2012 Buick with the LNF engine will be E85 certified. So it may have bigger injectors and a better HPFP that you can borrow.

The 2011 is a DI turbo engine and is E85 compatible but doesn't make the same power as ours so I'm not sure what it's got inside.

[SKY888]

One thing to note about fuel delivery. If you haven't heard yet, the 2012 Buick with the LNF engine will be E85 certified. So it may have bigger injectors and a better HPFP that you can borrow.

The 2011 is a DI turbo engine and is E85 compatible but doesn't make the same power as ours so I'm not sure what it's got inside.

thanks for the info Kenny.   I actually read some info about this car last Feb 2011.

yes, the 2012 Buick will have higher flowing injectors!

But not sure if it has a higher output HPFP though.  That's the issue.   The 2012 Buick is meant for E85 and the fuel system is fully compatible........I'm not sure about our older LNF engines though is also "fully compatible".

Although the 2012 Buick has higher flowing injectors compared to our injectors......that car is also producing ONLY 258 ft-lbs.....which is very similar to the older LNF tq levels.    So I'm not really sure if those injectors will be able to handle the fuel requirements of my power goals.

In addition, since I am not definite yet, on what fuel I will be using, I did what I did, so it can be very versatile just in case I want to run normal pump gas (primary tank) and C16/e85 (secondary tank).  Even if I want to run full C16/E85, I can just fill both tank with the fuel I want.    Or if I want C16 on primary tank, and M3/M5 on secondary tank, I can do it as well.  Or just pump fuel on both tanks.   I like the versatility of my set-up.

[kennysabarese]

i completely agree

but just to be correct it's hitting ~290tq and 255 hp

[SKY888]

oh is it 290tq now?    hmmmm....

from what I read a couple months back, it says 260hp and 260tq, just like the old LNF.   But probably the newer articles lately have the moreupdated specs.


anywho, I believe that these higher flowing injectors will be PERFECT for a milder build.    Or somebody like SOB, who wants to run full E85 tuned car on his autocross car.