Topic: EFR 6758 build - your ideas?

[Yps]

Hello all,
i'm about to prepare the mod of my Opel GT (LNF motor) this winter.

Basically i'm targeting for a stable 400(450) hp(clutch) set-up with a homogenous torque curve. i made some decissions on the required parts but like to hear your ideas about the chosen parts.

Borg Warner EFR 6758
Details: click me.
The required spacer ring to fit a Garret T25 manifold will be manufactured by my company. BOV is built in the EFR 6758.
Q1: Where to buy/Which sealing gasket to the manifold would you recommend?
Q2: Wastegate?

Manifold (Garret T25) - casted
already ordered, will arrive soon.
Q: Where to buy/Which sealing gasket to the motor would you recommend?

Downpipe (with highflow cat)
Some members already suggested to use a Solo downpipe with the highflow cat.
i guess the downpipe needs to be modified to fit the EFR and my Magna exhaust system.
Q: Am i correct, any advice for this?
This will be a difficult item anyway because of german regulations. Maybe i will go for a locally made one to keep the emissions within the regulations.

Heat shield
As much as i've seen it is possible to modify the original one to fit the EFR.
Q: Am i correct?

Intercooler
I got an EDS Intercooler which is way more efficient than the stock one. I will keep that one as a start.

water-methanol injection
I read about AEM. But i'm totally unsure which one exactly. I want to use the injection for safety reasons to reduce temperatures and the risk of blowing up the motor.
Q: Recommendations?

clutch
I'm targeting for a SPEC stage 3+ clutch. I want to keep daily driveability as comfortable as possible.
Q: Has anyone made good experience with that one yet?

fuel system (low pressure/high pressure pump)
Q: Does anyone know the specs of the stock ones?
I want to check if i need to replace them in order to provide sufficient fuel flow.

General
Q: What else should i consider?

I'm really looking forward to your ideas/recommendations.

Thank you all!

my current ride/mods: click me.

[SKY888]

first you don't need a wastegate for your efr 6758.   It already has an internal wg.  Please read more information about EFR turbos.....



I have AEM water/meth............but I'll recommend Devil's own water/meth instead.   Better controller, better quality parts......



I'll go with SOLO 3" exhaust.....than Magnaflow.

The magnaflow has a 2.5" bottleneck near the dp.....even though they call it a "3" exhaust.   That bottleneck will restrict flow



with 400whp goal...you don't need to upgrade your hpfp/lpfp.  I ran my gt3076r turbo kit, as well as my gt3582r kit and I never had fuel issues.

[Kelu]

If you refer to the manifold-turbo gasket, I used none, only some sealant but I don't know for sure, I will ask my tuners if you want to
6758 is internally gatted, no need to buy an external wastegate but I think you will need a modification of the position of the wastegate actuator.

Manifold gasket which matches Garret manifold:
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/Cobalt-Extruded-Honed-Manifold-Gasket-9230949-P1609C139.aspx

For downpipe go for a custom made one. Solo will not fit cause EFR has a VBand and also it sits differently than the stock turbo. The position of the turbo based on the spacer might influence the downpipe shape and length so go custom made. Stick a 200 cel cat in the downpipe and you should be fine with emissions. Also use some silencers in your cat-back if regulation is your concern

I used no heat shield for the moment, casted manifold and casted turbine housing wasn't so heat radiant, I could stick my hand close to 3-5cm to them after 2h runs.

Just make sure you log everything, many details can lead to a blown engine, just try to pay attention to details and let an experienced tuner to handle your build.

I just installed mine, about 500km done on it and I'm loving it. I went with non-SAC kit and the only noticeable differences are: way lower engagement point in the pedal (I wanted like this) and a firmer pedal feel, everything else is almost like stock..
Make sure you buy slave cylinder also which I didn't 

We have no upgrades for stock fuel systems. Just make sure you use best octane gas which you have around there and pray for high values.

Patience, patience, patience and money. Expect for worse case scenario and hope for the best.

[Yps]

Thank you for the tips!

@SKY888
internal wastegate  I swear i will read more about the EFR's.

DevilsOwn DVC-30 Stage 2, that one?
Have you ever heard about snowperformance over in the states? click me , What do you think?

Damn 2 yrs ago i had the choice between Magna and Solo. Seems to me that back then i obviously made a mistake. I'll try the Magna for a start and see what happens. As Kelu wrote i have to make anyway a custom made downpipe so they shall get rid of the 2.5" bottleneck.

@Kelu
I'll better go and grab me a gasket. Thank you for the link 

Ok, custom made downpipe and i will get rid of the 2.5" bottleneck of the Magna.

......
Just make sure you log everything, many details can lead to a blown engine, just try to pay attention to details and let an experienced tuner to handle your build.
....

Can you recommend a good way to log everything?
Are you using HPtuner/VCM suite? What else could be used? Is the OBDII data enough or shall i install additional sensors?
I'm going to install a torque measurement on the gearbox as it is used in Formula 1. Our company is using that in our machines and we have the ability to adapt it to the gearbox. What else on top?

What do you mean by "slave cylinder"? (sorry, my english isn't that good to understand it)
In germany almost every gas station has 100 octane fuel 
It costs an arm and a leg tho. $2.55 per Liter -> $9.65 per gal. 

Patience - oh YES. That will be the toughest part of this build. I'll bring the car to the tuner over winter break. I hope the 5 months will be more than enough to finish it.

[Kelu]

I couldn't find a more complete OBDII scanner for our engines than HPTuners Scanner. OBDII should be enough to monitor as daily basis.
About additional sensors:
- pressure gauge in the manifold but only for the moment when you will do the tune to check the backpressure
- EGT probe
- Oil pressure/temp cause our engine has only a switch for oil pressure
- boost to see the real boost and not pegged by our MAP sensors or HPT Scanner
- you can go as berserk you want

Tq measurement? More details please?!

Slave cylionder or clutch actuator: http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/pdfs/LNF_Clutch.pdf
Part #9, there are on stock in Germany but they want like 300 Euros for one or try to find one from US around 100-150$, there was a company on ebay which was selling this for $70 but is down for the moment.

Until US guys go crazy about 100 octane gas you should mention that octane in Europe is calculated differently than in US
Also please stop complaining about gas prices cause I have same but the income is 4 times lower than in Germany.

Also if I would live in Germany I would do 2 more things:
- Checking EDS, didn't they announce a turbo kit some months ago?
- Checking with VMax cause I know they work on 2 turbo kits using GT35 and another one

But seeing EFR6258 doing 23psi (1.6bar) on stock engine and head until 3000rpm I don't think there is another turbo on the market to match that and be capable of 450bhp for that price.

[Yps]

Tq measurement
As a starter one of the possibilities: Manner. Is a bit outdated tho. We use a newer system which does only require a magnetic drive shaft made of certain shaft steel.
I'll give you some more details tomorrow evening.

Ok, got the point with the clutch 

Ooops, didn't know that there is a difference in octane. 

EDS: Arno is still trying to get more hp out of his modified K04 turbo (bigger wheel mod) This looks for me like playing in the kindergarden. He's stuck with 360 hp.
VMAX: If they ever release it. They will have a day of open door in may. I'll take a look and let you know. Jans doesn't has his GT anymore. Since then they almost stopped development for the GT.

The EFR 6258 will require a good tuner. There is a lot of potential with it and that's the point i like to have.

[SKY888]

Thank you for the tips!

@SKY888
internal wastegate  I swear i will read more about the EFR's.

DevilsOwn DVC-30 Stage 2, that one?
Have you ever heard about snowperformance over in the states? click me , What do you think?

Damn 2 yrs ago i had the choice between Magna and Solo. Seems to me that back then i obviously made a mistake. I'll try the Magna for a start and see what happens. As Kelu wrote i have to make anyway a custom made downpipe so they shall get rid of the 2.5" bottleneck.

Ok, custom made downpipe and i will get rid of the 2.5" bottleneck of the Magna.
I'm going to install a torque measurement on the gearbox as it is used in Formula 1. Our company is using that in our machines and we have the ability to adapt it to the gearbox. What else on top?

What do you mean by "slave cylinder"? (sorry, my english isn't that good to understand it)

Devil's own Stage 2 is fine.  That's the one with the progressive controller.

Even if you have a custom made downpipe.....the 2.5" bottleneck with the magnaflow will be there.    It's the magnaflow's end that's the issue.

Clutch actuator is the one that you need if you'll change your clutch. 

[Gregory]

What is the clutch actuator?
Does not spec have a cylinder in the package?
What did you guys do?

[SKY888]

you already have a stock clutch actuator.

but it is good safety measure to replace it while you're replacing the clutch,....since you're already there...

[shabby]

Why not contact zzp and get their efr turbo that bolts up to our manifold and cat? You'll save some money by not purchasing the garrett manifold and making a custom downpipe.
More info here http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/zzp-builds-best-lnf-mod-ever-244457/

[Yps]

i already ordered the Garret (will arrive 4/29/11)
If i knew about ZZP before i prolly got one of them.

Now to another issue i'm facing...
The MT-5 manual transmission was built by Aisin (AR-5). Info: click me.

This gearbox is rated 260 ft lbf ONLY. 
This will not hold the targeted app. 385 ft lbf 

Has anyone a good idea for a better gearbox?

I found only the possibility to use a modded 4T65E but i don't want to converse my manual shift to an automatic transmission.

[Kelu]

That rating is way too low. I have estimated 546 Nm (400 lbs-ft) and 626 Nm (460 lbs-ft) with nitrous and many races done and gearbox has no issue.
http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,5259.msg72258.html#msg72258

I'm just lucky it didn't broke?
I don't think so

[SKY888]

it will be fine.

mine was at from 350-380 ft-lbs using two turbo kits for the past 2 years.....and I had no issues.

The clutch will be the weakest link in your set-up.

[Yps]

According to your experience it won't be as that dramatic as i would expect it. Thats gooood!  

I got a bit sensitive on that one because in the past 3 weeks we had 4 guys in the gt forum with a damaged gearbox.
On all 4 cars the 4th gear couldn't be engaged resp. after engaging it disengaged again.

Have you heard anything similar in the states about issues with the 4th gear?

[Arabas]

I got a bit sensitive on that one because in the past 3 weeks we had 4 guys in the gt forumwith a damaged gearbox.
On all 4 cars the 4th gear couldn't be engaged resp. after engaging it disengaged again.

Have you heard anything similar in the states about issues with the 4th gear?

Yps, in Greece there have been some issues with gearbox not engaging easily at medium to high rpm. it has turned out to be the engine mounts being a little loose.
at high rpm, the engine was shaking (naturaly) and the gear wouldn't engage unless the rpm dropped.
i suggest you tell the guys to have their engine mounts checked. loose mounts can cause this.

[Yps]

thnx Arabas,
i'll pass the info along to them.

Anyway i'm a bit concerned about the gearbox the more i read. I found in one of the other forums
"Originally Posted by GM Media
2008 Aisin AR-5 (MA5) Car And Truck Transmission

2008 Model Year Summary
Aisin AR-5 (MA5) five-speed manual car and truck transmission
Carryover from 2007 Model Year

•   Ratio For 3rd Gear Higher For Pontiac Solstice And Saturn Sky
•   1st And 3rd Gears Strengthened With Shot Peening Process
•   Clutch Made Larger For Hummer H3 Application
•   2nd And 3rd Gear Synchronizers Changed To Carbon On H3 Application


FULL DESCRIPTIONS OF CARRYOVER FEATURES

RATIO FOR 3RD GEAR HIGHER FOR PONTIAC SOLSTICE AND SATURN SKY
The ratio for 3rd gear on both roadsters was made “shorter”, or higher, to allow higher engine rpm for better performance in 3rd gear and bring it closer to 2nd gear. This change is not applied to the compact pickup trucks, Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon.

1ST AND 3RD GEARS STRENGTHENED WITH SHOT PEENING PROCESS
The 1st and 3rd gearsets on the Solstice and Sky, and the Hummer H3, are strengthened by a shot peening process during gear manufacturing. The increase in torque from the new high-performance 2.0L I4 turbocharged engine in the Solstice GXP and the Sky Red Line, as well as in the new 3.7L I5 in the H3 required the stronger gears.

CLUTCH MADE LARGER FOR HUMMER H3 APPLICATION
To handle the increased power and torque from the new 3.7L I5 in the Hummer H3, the clutch was increased in diameter from 265mm to 280mm.

2ND AND 3RD GEAR SYNCHRONIZERS CHANGED TO CARBON ON H3 APPLICATION
The friction material on the synchronizers for the 2nd and 3rd gear blocker rings are changed from brass to carbon, which is a more durable and heat-resistant material. This allows the transmission to handle the increased torque of the new 3.7L I5 in the H3.


LOW MAINTENANCE
The Aisin AR-5 uses Esso 75W90 for lubrication. There is no maintenance required under normal operating conditions, although fluid changes are recommended for severe duty. A GM part number service oil is available from GM dealers.

OVERVIEW

To achieve car-like standards in running noise and shift quality, the proven Aisin AR-5 was selected for the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon (GMT355) compact pickup truck line. This transmission will handle the torque output of the base and uplevel engines, which will reduce assembly and service complexity.

The design and performance targets were supplied to Aisin by GM Powertrain to make the AR-5 a state-of-the-art manual light-duty transmission. The AR-5 is currently used by Isuzu and Toyota, although the gearsets and ratios for the GM application are unique.

The Aisin AR-5 was selected as a starting point because of its characteristic low-noise levels during operation and the light shift feel and smooth gear engagement properties. The Aisin unit is used in competitive sport-utility applications, meeting car-like noise standards.

The Aisin 5-speed transmission is a conventional two-axis manual gearbox, with a through shaft and a counter shaft, spaced 82mm apart on-center. It is cast in aluminum, and weighs 107 pounds. The gear selector pattern is conventional for a five speed manual transmission, with the reverse gate on the far right side and rearward. The shift lever connects directly to the top of the transmission.

Triple-cone synchronizers are used on 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears. These synchronizers have three friction surfaces, which increase their ability to transfer the flow of torque more smoothly from one gear to another. Synchronizers act as clutches to speed up or slow down the gearsets that are being shifted to, and greater friction area results in easier shifting for the driver. All of the friction surfaces on the synchronizer rings are brass. The ratios in the 5-speed are widely spaced in the pickup truck applications for versatile performance and efficiency, and are optimized for both the 2.8L I4 in the compact pickups and the 3.7L I5 in the Hummer H3. Both engines share the same ratios."
i could interpret that:

1. Why no shot peening process for 2nd and 3rd gears?

2. To improve the gearbox the Hummer H3 synchronizers in carbon for 2&3 gear could be used.

3. Triple cone synchronizers possible for 3. to 4. gear?

i need to find a more detailled drawing of the gearbox. 

[Arabas]

after your nice findings and posting for the kappa gearbox, there is only one (off topic) question...
What took you so long to join this forum????

thx for the usefull info!

[Yps]

...
What took you so long to join this forum????
...

I've been messing around with my other mods 

found the drawings of the gearbox and the gearbox service manual. It's in german. I'll open a separate thread as soon as i have a full picture of it.

Click me for some basic drawings of the Aisin AR-5 transmission

[SKY888]

Yeah, I wonder if we can use the 2ND AND 3RD GEAR CARBON SYNCHRONIZERS used ON H3 APPLICATION?

[Graywolf]

You probably can use 2nd and third gear synchronizers from the H3 . However,it sounds like the gear ratio is different for 3rd gear which could be a problem from a performance stand point. You need to find out the ratios for all the gears to decide. I have not heard of people having problems with the Aisin trans.

[SKY888]

here's the H3 specs:

Gear         5 speed MANUAL      Optional 4L60E
1st                  3.75:1                  3.06:1
2nd                 2.20:1                  1.63:1
3rd                  1.37:1                  1.00:1
4th                  1.00:1                   .70:1
5th                    .73:1                    N/A
Reverse            3.67:1                 2.29:1

[SKY888]

specs of 2008 Saturn Sky Redline:

First Gear Ratio (:1) 3.75 
Second Gear Ratio (:1) 2.26 
Third Gear Ratio (:1) 1.51 
Fourth Gear Ratio (:1) 1.00 
Fifth Gear Ratio (:1) 0.73 
Reverse Ratio (:1) 3.67 

[SKY888]

2nd and 3rth gear are different 

[Sol Asylum]

Yeah but the synchro is not the same as the actual gear.  The synchro is basically just a means to lock the gear to the shaft that it rides on.  So if the synchro is interchangeable it would make no difference what the ratio is as your not changing that part of the transmission.  Here are some pics from a non Kappa transmission that I had laying around.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
The synchro hub is the part on the left (this is a first/second synchro the teeth on the outside is for the reverse gear) the synchro ring is the brass part in the middle and the gear (in this case its part of the input shaft) is on the right.  The synchro hub is splined on the inside and rotates with the main shaft AKA the output shaft.  The gear normally is free to spin on the main shaft.  When you go to shift gears the ring is driven against the cone on the gear and the teeth of the synchro ring and hub will line up with the synchro teeth on the gear.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
The hub then slips over the synchro ring and the synchro teeth on the gear and lock the gear to the hub and thus the main shaft.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

So if the hub and synchro rings are interchangeable you should be able to use it and not have to worry about gear ratios.

[Yps]

hmmm... guess i got to contact a Hummer dealer to ask for the synchro rings of the H3 transmission. Next week i'm on a business trip in Minneapolis/MN, hopefully i'll have some time to visit some car dealers.

Back to EFR build/Software tuning
In many software tune posts i see that you are referring to a guy called "Vince".

Who is that?

Which Software tuning does he offer?