Topic: The clutch surgery is done

[snaponbob]

This was a real  event. Besides the new hydraulic clutch actuator (GM's term, not MINE !!!) being late - so it did not go in , we have had tornado alerts and my comressor motor burned up.  Anyway. it's done. If anyone plans on doing the task, it is fairly straight forward, but you MUST know some things that are unique to the car (pinion angle alignment, hidden bell housing bolts, etc.). Having a friend to help drop and install the gearbox is critical. It is NOT a one person job. All of the rest is fairly simple.

That said, here are some comments;
1) The weight savings is 14 pounds. The Spec flywheel is 12.5 pounds and the stock flywheel is 27 pounds.
2) I used the SAC Spec components, and yet the pedal action IS lower to the floor than stock. Also, the engagement point is distinct and short.
3) The dual mass flywheel is one hell of a mechanism. There are two distinct sections and plenty of movement between the two. Because of that, it was able to damp a LOT of evils and vibrations that are inherent in ALL in line four cylinder.
4) Now that I have a single mass flywheel to live with, all the "negative" comments that people share start to make sense. The light flywheel does not CAUSE vibration, but rather it does not HIDE that as the dual mass unit does. Under load at lower rpm's it feels like any other 4 banger. It vibrates - sort of nostalgic.
5) The engine does not spin up any differently than before, and certainly does not spool down any quicker. Really. The computer controls all that at the throttle body.
6) Is all the expense (~ $700-$800 for the parts and a LOT of labor if you have someone do the work) worth it? YES - if you are making a LOT of power or race the car. Otherwise - pure bragging rights. Does the stuff make a difference - YES -- for racing or purists.

So - that is MY assessment. And, I am glad I did it.

[G8TR]

Congratulations, I was hoping we would hear about the install soon.

[snaponbob]

It was WORK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SKY888]

good job SOB!

[snaponbob]

good job SOB!

Thanks. But, there was some pending panic when the clutch was not working AT ALL !!!!!!!!!! Lots of unpleasant sounds from the bellhousing, but things started to loosen up and started working. Never EVER had issues like this before. Initially the action started to happen right at the floor, but after some use I guess the slave started to self bleed. Still not 100% thrilled with the clutch action be closer to the floor than stock, but I getting used to it. Which reminds me -----------------

7) The 3+ is a bit heavier at the pedal, but not much.
8) I believe that the "chatter" people speak of is more about the way the clutch actually engages much quicker than a "normal" clutch does.
9) Additionally, the stalling people talk about is part of the same set of ways this clutch acts, not the lighter flywheel. The true net weight difference is only ~15 pounds, and that is a SMALL percentage of all the rotating mass of this engine (crank, rods, pistons, balancers, etc.) Aggressive clutches engage quickly, so one has to adjust !!

[IBDRINKEN]

doesnt werks sell something to raise the clutch engagement...

[SKY888]

doesnt werks sell something to raise the clutch engagement...

its ONLY for non-sac application

[NormSky]

Bob, how many miles on new clutch? At what rpms do you feel vibration.

Clutches are like brakes they need to be bedded. Which should less chatter at engagement.

[snaponbob]

Correct on the Werks piece. After about 50 miles, the engagement point is just a tad lower than stock, but the total engagement is across a shorter range. Additionally, it is certainly manageable and I would not even consider taking the gearbox out again unless ABSOLUTELY needed.

The chatter I was referring to was a comment on what others have spoken about. What I am feeling seems more related to getting that sweet spot right so the clutch does not rattle everything else. If driven in a sloppy manner, the stock clutch would chatter, as will ANY clutch. The Spec rig just takes more attention --- and would be a PIA as a DD.

The bedding in process is understood, and if done properly should only make the engagement better and stronger. Brake bedding is a TWO part process (as I discovered with CarboTech pads) in that part 1 is gassing out the pads (not needed with this clutch disc) and transferring material to the friction surfaces (a common process). The key is to avoid hot spotting. The silly thing is that the instructions say the car must be driven 500 miles to bed in the clutch - WRONG. If I did a KC - St Louis  round trip the only thing accomplished would be wasting 7 hours burning two tanks of gas. Sooo ............... I will be boring myself senseless puttering around town ............... for a while.   

[Critterman]

6k and dump the clutch
repeat several times
pull and replace
you know how to do it now

[snaponbob]

6k and dump the clutch
repeat several times
pull and replace
you know how to do it now

Ummmmmm .......................... I'm thinken'




































































NO   

[GXPinKC]

6k and dump the clutch
repeat several times
pull and replace
you know how to do it now

Critter, uh, I have feared for some time that you are a "go getter" type, no messing around, git right at it and so forth...and Bob has a lot of patience, way back he had to deal with me at his place, but I do believe that he needs a slight break, prior to commencing with a new project.  Please, some patience might be in order now, uh, some concern for your fellow man who has just finished a tough job.  Bob must be   given time to reflect on what he has done and then when it sinks in, smile with pride on the accomplishment of a goal... Now, the fun starts... It's time to review, access, and interpolate the fact that he has a reworked and updated and as Bob states the engagement is across a shorter range!!!  Uh, the sweet spot is indeed SEEET!!!  

Now, is the time for him to access with pride the fact that he will be a tad quicker out of the box due to the bedding in process being perfected.  Ah, Bob's toy has been rejuvenated, time for a toast!!!      

Uh, Bob, in your honor I just reached for my Jack Daniel's 1981 Gold Medal Tennessee Whiskey that rests on the computer desk.  How sweet indeed to finish the post with a toast.  Happy trails dude...

[snaponbob]

Uh, Bob, in your honor I just reached for my Jack Daniel's 1981 Gold Medal Tennessee Whiskey that rests on the computer desk.  How sweet indeed to finish the post with a toast. 

So early in the day ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[elff]

It's Happy Hour somewhere.

Great Information.  I'm going to let Dave install mine, but with the Turbo he is installing tomorrow, it's only a matter of time before I need a new clutch.

Thanks for all your hard work and information. 

[miller11386]

PITA As a DD?

Not something I wanted to hear. I wanted to go to a Spec 3+ and light flywheel when mine gives out... which at 380ftlbs im sure wont be too many miles. (hoping to limp until next winter)

That kinda stinks.

[snaponbob]

PITA As a DD?

Not something I wanted to hear. I wanted to go to a Spec 3+ and light flywheel when mine gives out... which at 380ftlbs im sure wont be too many miles. (hoping to limp until next winter)

That kinda stinks.

Opinions are like noses ............... that said, those were only my impressions. Ask others how they feel about their rigs.

Today I will be putting more miles on the car, so we will see. Some people that that the STOCK clutch was too sensitive !! I am geezing, so maybe I am just lazy. If you do not do a lot of clutch slipping, the stock clutch will live a long time, even with a lot of power. Something to consider is the "need" for a lighter flywheel. Keep in mind that the dual mass flywheel does a fantastic job of masking the typical 4 cylinder "buzz". I was always amazed at smooth the LNF engine was, and now I know it was the dual mass flywheel. The SAC style Spec 3+ will work on the stock flywheel just fine. 

[miller11386]

true. I only planned to upgrade the clutch, so flywheel will be a game time decision.

Not really sure I have heard anyone rave about the flywheel upgrade tho, just the clutch has gotten good reviews.

Like I said im running mine till it dies. But I can already feel a little bit of slip at different points....

[Racer_X]

Kinda off point, but what's the difference in Non-Sac vs. Sac clutches?

[JoshMcMadMac]

Kinda off point, but what's the difference in Non-Sac vs. Sac clutches?

"Self-Adjusting Clutch"

[spicy3480]

Congrats on geting the job done!!

[Racer_X]

"Self-Adjusting Clutch"

I was trying to find this thread to say "nevermind" I found out the difference- using the GREAT SEARCH BUTTON, known as Yahoo!

Thank you!

[idkfa]

Thanks for the feedback!  This is something I really need to do (clutch at least) but I really wish I could drive an LE5 without the dual-mass to see the complaints.   

OTOH, I thought the whole point was faster spooling of the rotating bits with the weight savings....ie, quicker response.   What about it benefits track cars?  Less weight, less wear and tear? 

[snaponbob]

Frankly, the difference in spool up response is subtle. As I put more miles on the clutch, it is getting easier to deal with. I wish the pedal action was higher, but it isn't, so that is something minor to get used to. One thing I have noticed is that when the clutch is cold it feels more like the stock one as it takes up (engages) but as it warms up (doesn't take long at all) it certainly engages a bit quicker. Maybe it would not be the PIA as a DD as I first said. There just is some "human interface adjustment period" involved. Or, if you are from South Phillie -- "yo' deal wid it"!!

[NormSky]

Bob, how many miles?

Did you use the WERKSracing Clutch Slave Cylinder Spacer?

[snaponbob]

Bob, how many miles?

Did you use the WERKSracing Clutch Slave Cylinder Spacer?

A couple hundred miles, plus some healthy abuse for two days at Lincoln with two drivers, and a couple of local events. Clutch is fine, pedal travel is low. The Werks spacer is for the non-SAC set, and I have the SAC type package. Not sure why the pedal is low, so I will be calling Spec. No plans on pulling the gearbox this season unless I MUST.