Kappa Performance Forum
Kappa Specific => Racing => Topic started by: Graywolf on June 05, 2011, 07:12:07 PM
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Memorial day weekend, Saturday was all day practice @ Black Hawk Raceway north of Rockford ,Illinois. The track is about 1.5 miles long 7 turn track. I noticed my brake pedal was a little soft but nothing major. Recently put on new Hawk brake pads that were not broken in yet. It was 89 degrees out and the car temp would hit 227 degrees after 10 - 12 laps but would cool down with one cool down lap. My last practice lap the car engine died in a 90mph corner. I went off the track doing about 50mph and came to a stop.[Didn't want another car to rear end me]My engine was blazing hot and so were my brakes]No cool down! They towed me in to the pit area. Being a average mechanic ,I figured the problem out quickly,no fuel pressue. After I put gas in the car it started right up.[I averaged 7 mpg running 100 octane] Put the car in my trailer and left it @ the track for Time attack on Monday. !st practice lap Monday, good brakes turn 1&2 , no brakes approaching turn 3,went off into wet grass and crashed into very heavy brush avoiding the big trees. I would have rear ended a nice corvette if I did swerve off course. I was so entangled in the heavy brush the car had to be lifted out by the roll bar with a tow truck. Damage-Extreme dimension front end,stainless steel wind splitter, and Hahn Intercooler completely demolished including front towing hook. Brakes Front calipers melted seals and not useable ,front rotors burnt scored, brake pads toast. Rears not as bad. Not sure why they failed completely all @ once unless I had air in the line from brakes boiling over after shutting down with no cool down lap on Saturday. Next race is in 6 days and I have allot to do on the car
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Damn Wolf glad you are okay. Sounds like the car can be fixed as long as your pockets are big enough.
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Ummmmmmmmmmmmm ... ow. Race calipers on the buy list?
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Pockets are near empty,will use stock front end and stock intercooler which I had in storage. I couldn't find a set of calipers that could be shipped that day. Replaced front calipers with oem, Rotors and pads replaced with EBC slotted and drilled front and back. Still awaiting intercooler bracket. Got great pictures of running Saturday that i will have to post. I have the crash and rescue on video in HD taken with Hero camera on my roll bar,Great quality. I first have to figure out how to down load it to my computer and then to Kappa Forum. Do not expect to see these anytime soon.
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Pockets are near empty,will use stock front end and stock intercooler which I had in storage. I couldn't find a set of calipers that could be shipped that day. Replaced front calipers with oem, Rotors and pads replaced with EBC slotted and drilled front and back. Still awaiting intercooler bracket. Got great pictures of running Saturday that i will have to post. I have the crash and rescue on video in HD taken with Hero camera on my roll bar,Great quality. I first have to figure out how to down load it to my computer and then to Kappa Forum. Do not expect to see these anytime soon.
If you have a card reader in your computer, just drop the SD card in its slot, and if it does not "auto-run" use Windows Explorer (assuming a PC) to select the drive and the video. Click on it, and it should run. If the video is good, upload it to Photobucket (or something like that) and then just share the link.
Stepping into Captain Obvious mode, if the stock brakes fried, the stock brakes will fry !!!!!!!!!!!!! Just as over cooking a turn will result in of traction, over cooking the brakes will kill them. The "fix" for both is to back off some. Point of curiosity - what wheels are you using? While standing up here on a soap box, if the front end became so hot the calipers had a melt down, be very aware that all the heat was going elsewhere! Keep eyes and ears open for any noises from the front wheel hubs.
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Oz ultraleggra with Hoosier A6 and R6. I don't see a slot on my computer.
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Oz ultraleggra with Hoosier A6 and R6. I don't see a slot on my computer.
Which GoPro do you have?
I wonder if they will not vent air as well as stocks might.
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I have the last version which is Hero HD for cars. The Oz wheels have alot more air space than the stock wheels.
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I have the last version which is Hero HD for cars. The Oz wheels have alot more air space than the stock wheels.
Should be able to use the USB cable to hook the camera to the computer. On page 2 of the manual theer are instructions for downloading your videos. http://www.uniquesquared.com/eBayImgs/Manuals/HD_HERO_en_instructions_v01.pdf
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Sorry to hear that. I have some extra stock front calipers I can ship you.
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I have stock brake lines also if needed
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Glad u are OK graywolf.
sorry to hear about this.
is it possible that you had brake fluids leaking?
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Yes, SO glad you are okay!
Sounds pretty scary. Hope you get it back working fast.
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I may have some brake lines as well in my storage unit...lemme know if you need them and I can go dig them out.
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Yowie! Glad you are ok! I was also wondering about a fluid leak, maybe as a result of the first crash?
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Sorry to hear about this. To walk away with only damage to your car, you were very skilled and lucky that day. Thank your lucky stars. Hope you are able to get the car track prepared again before your next run.
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Ditto with Ct Solstice post above. Just so fortunate that you were not injured. Cars can be repaired, sometimes, people cannot!
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Glad you are OK but since you said the setup was new, maybe something during the install did not go right.
I am assuming the brake fluid was not the standard one that comes with the car.
Hope you get everything back together and you can race again.
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Thank you guys for your thoughts and offering of parts. Car is already put together and almost ready to race this Saturday @ Autobahn raceway in Joilet ,ILLinois. However a test drive today revealed a scraping sound coming from the passenger side rear wheel. Srape pause scrape pause srape etc. Any Ideas
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Brakes not tightened down right? You said new brakes all around right? Bent axel?
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However a test drive today revealed a scraping sound coming from the passenger side rear wheel. Srape pause scrape pause srape etc. Any Ideas
it is doing it at all times or is it doing this sound only when you are turning towards a specific direction i.e. turning right?
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Bent wheel?
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Do you have the GXP brake vents that come through the bumper, that could be hitting the wheel
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Joe, i think he said he hears the sound from the rear passenger wheel
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oops, read through it too fast.
Bent rotor?
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Brakes Front calipers melted seals and not useable
Can you explain this more? What seals? What calipers were you using?
The stock brake ducts don't do shit, the tire covers them when you turn. I'm getting brake cooling spindle ducts. You may want to check them out. They should be ready soon.
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apparently my body shop removed my cooling ducts when I had my front fender repainted.
DOH!!!!
Didn't know until the hood and fender were off.
Gray,
Im happy to hear you are ok and that while it will cost some money, damages were fairly minor.
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Did you go see him yet and find out what he did with them?
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Not a bent wheel,rotors are new,no vent ducts on rear. They just looked @ the car and said the noise is common after new brake install and will disappear usually in the first 500 miles or so and not to worry! Kenny they are oem brakes and I saw melted rubber on the front caliper. Not sure that it is a seal but it was part of the caliper. So I will have to do some break in of the brakes in the next few days. Anyone have a protocal for the break in period,it will be very short for sure,maybe 20 miles at best.I am amazed how wonderfully helpfull and nice you all have been. Thank You
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The only rubber on the caliper would be the piston dust boot and the seal, not a lot of rubber, but if the seal melted, fluid would go beyond the piston and onto the pads. Did you have brake fluid leaking? Brake fluid on the pad is bad, but not sure if it causes catastrophic failure.
If it's just the dust boot melting, it shouldn't cause a catastrophic failure. I have ripped dust boots on a few of my calipers and they work fine. (but i will replace them eventually)
When I google I see others that have had the problem.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=melted+caliper+boot&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=melted+caliper+boot&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
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Put light pressure on the brakes at low speed and see if you hear the sound.
Those the sound skips or is it constant when you do the above?.
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BRAKE PAD BEDDING IN PROCEDURE To ensure maximum performance and customer satisfaction, new brake pads must be bedded in upon installation. Correct bedding guarantees that new brake pads and new rotors work flawlessly together. In order to function optimally, organic brake pads must develop friction coal on its surface. This friction coal develops at a temperature of approximately 280°C (537°F). It is very important that this temperature is reached continuously and slowly. This gradual process generates temperatures that not only penetrate the surface of the brake discs and pads, but also distribute evenly through the whole disc and pad material. This is essential when using new brake discs, since the disc often shows signs of stress (due to the casting process and fast cooling) in the materials. A steady and careful warming and cooling process guarantees a good release of both materials. The bedding in/break in procedure should be done as follows: Drive at approx. 35 mph (60 kmh) for about 500 yards (solid front discs) to 800 yards (vented front discs) while slightly dragging the brakes (i.e. light brake pedal pressure). This process allows the brake temperature to slowly and evenly build up to 300°C (572°F). Now, if possible, drive about 2200 yards maintaining the same speed without braking. This will allow the pads and discs to cool down evenly. After this cool-down, perform a normal brake application from 35 mph to 0. No panic stops! Now, the friction surface has evenly developed friction coal, the pads have bonded with the disc surface, and tensions in the disc materials will have disappeared. Only trained master mechanics should perform this procedure before delivering the vehicle to its owner. Do not expect your customer to properly finish your brake job! This bedding process is only suitable for the front axle - not the rear. This is due to the brake force distribution of front and rear axles. In order to reach 300°C (527°F) on the rear pads you would have to drive several miles with dragging brakes. However, in that time the front brakes will be glowing red, overheating and thus destroying the front brakes. Final note – don’t forget to clean hubs and check the wheel bearings. Also, the brake fluid should be replaced at least every 2 years.
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Good info!!
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Every pad manufacturer has slightly different bed in procedure, and if you have fresh rotor surface it can change the process as well. So definitely get the instructions from the manufacturer of your pads!
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Thanks for the info,my instructions just say no heavy braking for 500 miles if possible.I willuse the process you described
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i used this method to break in my Opel Vectra OPC front brakes (rotors and pads). the info was provided by lil goat. worked for me
http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm (http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm)
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You have to be careful with bedding, because if you are using racing pads, it's VERY hard to get them up to temperature, which is what you have to do in order to bed them, get them up close to their temperature limit (when they smell) then let them cool off.
I couldn't bed my Carbotech's on the street where I live. It would be very hard to do without having no police and no cars for a very very long stretch of highway. But they are 1,600 degree pads.
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I just drove the car for about 1 mile @ 35 mph with some pressure on the brakes then let cool some and made a few stops. The rear brake noise is gone. Will do some slower warm up laps at the track this Saturday before the Race. They either will break in or break! This will be my last race until the middle of August when I will race ever two weeks x 4. Stupid schedule this year but I suspect it has something to do with prime track rental fees being so high. The weather is very rainy so it hard to drive more since my car is allergic to rain! My car is Topless!!!
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Glad to hear you were okay!
Do you still run ABS on your car on the track? If so I would disable it, the ABS system absolutely sucks on the racetrack and does all sorts of goofy things. Disabled mine and will never go back!
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The more I read about ABS, the more I am beginning to think that upgrading tires and brakes will actually result in the ABS performing worse and causing your braking distances to suffer.
There are algorithms that rely on a certain amount of grip from the tires and braking force that can be applied, and when you start to alter that, you could have problems.
Dave, how do you disable the ABS?
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Physically cut it out from between the master brake cylinder and the calipers?
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Just pull the fuse. Might disconnect stability program at the same time. If your not trail braking you should not have a problem with stock setup. The stock brake bias is very strong to the front wheels with a short wheel base can be a handful. What I found out in the snow is just lift off the throttle and the back end will come back in line. You can counter steer but wide width tire width your better off snapping the throttle closed if the rear kicks out.
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You can just hold the button down on your dash for 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken. This will turn off all of the nanny controls...
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You can just hold the button down on your dash for 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken. This will turn off all of the nanny controls...
no, it will not take ABS off, only TC and esc. the best way to disconnect it is to pull the fuse, but then you will also not have TC and esc and you ll probably get an error message on the dash.
furthermore, the ABS will not work more with bigger brakes (rotors and/or calipers). it will only work if conditons are met so that the brakes are about to block. with bigger brakes, this is less likely in high speeds.
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Some people say that our stock brakes are more than enough...
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1) True, the TC button has no control over the ABS.
2) Pulling the ABS fuse may only disable the ABS, but since maybe nobody has tried, there may be a learning curve to see what else it may affect. Probably nothing.
3) GM loves excessive front brake bias.
4) If larger brakes are installed on the front only, the brakes will probably have better feel, but the bias will shift further forward.
5) If I were thinking of pulling the ABS fuse, I would be tempted to go to larger REAR brakes, NOT the fronts. The fronts are over loaded BECAUSE the rears are not doing much. Get the rears helping, the balance will improve and because the car will slow quicker the brakes will be in use LESS!!
6) The ABS system has no idea whats size brakes are in use -- one wheel speed rates. Nothing else. That said, add sticky tires and real aggressive brakes, and you have the perfect storm for overwhelming the ABS computer maps. Z06 guys are seeing the same issue. This holds true in Solo AND road race.
7) In all forms of racing (solo to F1) excess brake use leads to failures. Fuel and tires have to be "managed", and so do brakes. At some point, the gas will be exhaust, tires overtaxed, and brakes overheated.
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Here is some info on how brake upgrades can affect ABS.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_abs_bigbrakekits.shtml (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_abs_bigbrakekits.shtml)
Also some info about brake bias. Some important points are that when you upgrade your tires, your G force under braking increases. That means you are sending more weight transfer to the front when you hit the brakes, making it more likely for the rears to lock up.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_rearbrake_upgrades.shtml (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_rearbrake_upgrades.shtml)
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Great post, Kenny.
I would love to get to the point of rear lock up. THAT is EASY to fix.
The articles confirm that ABS is all about the wheel speeds.
The assertion that higher brake force means more weight shift, BUT, the limiting factor is the contact patch and coefficient of friction. In Solo, things happen so fast that ABS "confusion" is a minor issue. Probably a BIG issue at higher speeds!! A lot of non-GM cars have far less over bias to the front, and having that extra benefit of using the rear contact patch is nice to feel.
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So Bob, is there any follow-up. How did your repairs go. Did you race the car recently.
I had a similar problem which turned out to be just the fluid boiling. I replaced the fluid but it took me about three bottles to get all of the air out. No problems since. I did disconnect the ABS after that and it did improve things. Now I run it with the ABS on and have had no problems since.
MIKE