Topic: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread

[SKY888]

Antonio, I love your passion and "persistence for learning"...but you have got to stop just regurgitating everything and take a little more time to actually understand things.  You run way to quickly with information you find or are told, and I worry that you will (or have) lose a lot of money on what someone, somewhere sells you as what you need.  321 is a great option, but not the end-all be-all you started off calling it.  "Cryo-treating" parts has its place, but can do more harm than good in some places too.  What brings me to saying this is that you have proclaimed "INCONEL" twice already in this thread, but do you even know what that means?  I think if you did, you would know enough to specify which type of Inconel as there are several.  Saying Inconel is a lot like saying just stainless steel.  I hope you do not take this the wrong way, I really mean it in a helpful way from seeing you post hundreds of times all over the message boards. 

no offense taken Josh

first of all, when I share something, I share something that I learned, not just from one person, website, or etc.    I try to understand opposing sides.    I quoted something from burns today about 321 vs 304 to show my factual reasoning why I'm very passionate in telling members the advantages of 321 ove 304.   I have access to multiple race shops here in Rhode Island, as well as back home in the Philippines.     Besides talking to BTF and learning from him, I also try to talk to tuners in RI and back in the Philippines, to see their points of view and their personal experiences on a certain subject.   They might not have all the same preferences, and might not agree on what I researched on..........I then pick what I believe will work for me.


second, could you please provide me a post of mine, where I stated that 321 is the end-all be-all in regards to manifold?
there's a difference between preferring 321 over 304...........and stating that 321 end-all be-all


third, about cryo-treating.     Did I even mention cryo-treating on this topic?   if so, please provide me with a statement where I mentioned it.    Or do you have any issues about my build, since I introduced cryo treatment to the forums via my build?    what exact parts that I cryoed do you think that I'm doing more harm, than good?  please enumerate these items


fourth, yes, I know the basics of inconel.    I researched about it, since even before I purchased my 321, I thought about custom inconel compound turbo manifold.     But due to purely financial practicality, and what my build just really need, I ended up with whats the best parts, my budget can accomodate.    Do you want me to discuss inconel, types, pros and cons?    If you know more about this topic, I would like to learn more.

   

[LatinVenom]

Antonio.
I do not know how expensive 310 is vs Inconel but here are the temperatures of the 3 300 steel.
Using Bog Warners 1050ºC = 1922.0ºF exhaust temperatures on new Turbo OEM engines. This figure is the maximum temperature.
The 310 series is the only one that can sustain those temperatures.

T304 800ºC = 1472.0ºF  melting point is 2500.F
T321 900ºC = 1652.0ºF  melting point is 2550.F
T310 1100ºC = 2012.0ºF

[SKY888]

Not sure how much 310 pipes cost too bro.

I wonder why they're not a common choice of builders tho?
There must be a reason, which I have no idea

[LatinVenom]

Well is 95% of the engines out there are not OEM factory turbo.
Yes, there are some exceptions and yes, with new government regulations will see more and more.
Look at the customer base of Full Race, most of those cars are NA from the factory.
Then all those V6 and V8 NA cars.
It would be interesting to find out how much different in cost would be to fabricate one using 310 steel?.
I did not post anything about 1.4848 as GXP_MATT suggested since it is not 300 steel.

[SKY888]

Does full race use 310 on their manifolds?

If so, maybe u can call them and inquire what SS they're using and what the price difference for a custom manifold ...between 321 vs 310 vs Inconel ---- Yes josh I mentioned it again lol

[LatinVenom]

Antonio:
I just called them and their answer was 316L on all manifolds.
This document is a good read specially on page 19 figure 5 that shows the temperature characterictics and 310 so far is the winner at 1100C all the others are at 975C or less.

[SKY888]

What the hell is 316L?
Never heard that before

Is that a subset of 310?


Nice learning things everyday

[Sol Asylum]

This is a pretty good list of properties for 316l

http://www.lenntech.com/stainless-steel-316l.htm

and this one

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/316_316L_Data_Sheet.pdf

[L-N-Fn]

FYI

The OEM manifold is SS. I thought garrett was also SS, but my magnet seamed to stick to it, kind of hard to tell when on the car.  I believe it is cast steel, but I could wrong.

[SKY888]

I thought the stock manifold....is cast iron?

SS?

[SKY888]

LV ....I dunno man, with a quick google search, I tried comparing 321 vs 316L

seems like 321 is preferred



I'm curious about your 310 tho?  way higher melting point compared to 321

[LatinVenom]

Antonio:
Look at the document I just added to my post #302.
Page 19 figure 5 talks about our discussion on the temperatures.
310 is the only one listed above 1000C.
L-N-Fn our exhaust manifolds are cast iron.

[SKY888]

Antonio:
Look at the document I just added to my post #302.
Page 19 figure 5 talks about our discussion on the temperatures.
310 is the only one listed above 1000C.
L-N-Fn our exhaust manifolds are cast iron.

yes, I read it bro!  lol

that's why I mentioned of my last post that....I'm intrigued with 310...since it has way higher melting point than 321.

I wonder why I don't know of anybody using 310 tho?



and yes, stock mani is cast iron!    

[LatinVenom]

LV ....I dunno man, with a quick google search, I tried comparing 321 vs 316L

seems like 321 is preferred



I'm curious about your 310 tho?  way higher melting point compared to 321

When I looked at the characteristics they both seem to be similar.
Now how much cost is 321 vs 316, however the temperature issue is on the side of 310.

[SKY888]

When I looked at the characteristics they both seem to be similar.
Now how much cost is 321 vs 316, however the temperature issue is on the side of 310.

from that quick google glance I did when you mentioned 316.

I believe the welders said that the 316 and 304 are around the same price range.  316 might be a lil higher.


but definitely 321 is more expensive compared to 316/304

[SKY888]

316 and 321 might have similar melting point.....

but I think the addition of titanium on 321 makes a difference.   
and makes it more expensive


does 316 have titanium?  no?   yes?
if yes, it might have less?

[LatinVenom]

316L does not have it, but  the operating temperatures based on that chart, are well below the 1050C/1922F Bog Warner's documents says the exhaust temperatures on our new engines are running at.
WERKS mentions he is going to use cast steel, but the issue with that as seen on one of my documents, it does not do well in environments where vibrations/shacking takes place.
Well the exhaust manifold attached to the engine and then the turbo and it's components will have vibrations.

[ihawk95]

I know a bit about 316/316L and 304/304L actually.

316 has good corrosion resistance and is typically used in corrosive applications.  316L is the welding friendly version.  We use both 304 and 316 in the food industry.  However, 316 is usually selected over 304 when the environment is corrosive as it has superior corrosion resistance...especially when exposed to chlorine.  316 is the choice for paper mills applications and 304 and 316 in steel mill applications.  Both for the corrosion resistance and a little for the heat resistance in a steel mill application.  Depended on the applications.  In the steel mills, my old, old company used 316 on pickling and galv lines.  316 is more expensive than 304 L.  I think 10 or 20% higher.  If fluctuates.  Seems like it's closer to 20% lately.  I could be wrong...I'll have to dig some more...but I don't think 316 has the heat resistance other 300 series stainless steels have.  It's still good, but some of the properties suffer a little because of the corrosion resistance due to the molybdeum.  It's mainly known for it's corrosion resistance and not nearly for it's heat resistance.  I used to know other 300 series stainless properties pretty well when recommending stainless for an application, but I only see 304 or 316 in the food industry.  Sorry if my memory is fuzzy.  If I have a little time later, I can look more.

Funny...I used design and sell headers to AKSteel!  Back in the day!!!

[ihawk95]

from that quick google glance I did when you mentioned 316.

I believe the welders said that the 316 and 304 are around the same price range.  316 might be a lil higher.


but definitely 321 is more expensive compared to 316/304

316 is definitely more expensive than 304.  I purchase equipment in these 2 for my current job and for certain 316 is 10-20% more expensive than 304.

Example...I received a quote this week for a $25,000 piece of equipment in 304.  The adder for 316 is $6000.  Ok, so it's more like 25% now.

[LatinVenom]

316L according to the document I'd posted does have the heat resistance.
However all thre of them 304/316/321 fall below the threshold Bog Warner published about exhaust temperatures on Turbo OEM engines.
The only ones so far that exceeds that is 309/310/330 steel base on the document page 19 figure 5.

[SKY888]

316L does not have it, but  the operating temperatures based on that chart, are well below the 1050C/1922F Bog Warner's documents says the exhaust temperatures on our new engines are running at.
WERKS mentions he is going to use cast steel, but the issue with that as seen on one of my documents, it does not do well in environments where vibrations/shacking takes place.
Well the exhaust manifold attached to the engine and then the turbo and it's components will have vibrations.

but were not really waiting for our exhaust manifold to reach 1922F........or the stated melting point of 321/310/304

if we really based it on their melting point..........other parts of then engine are all melted already!  damage has already been done.

its not like these manifolds crack since they already reached their melting point.

they crack due to vibrations, stress, weight of turbo (not enough braces on mani/turbo), and heat.....all combined.


you also have to look at what other elements are in these stainless steel manifolds.      Just like what I mentioned, the carbide precipitation that happens on 304......is reduced/stopped by the addition of titanium on a 321.


so a lot of factors has to be considered.


its not all about melting point.

a SS might have a high melting point.........but if the physical properties of that SS easily disintegrates at 500F ...then its no use.   Sure its not melting, but it can easily crack or something?

[SKY888]

I know a bit about 316/316L and 304/304L actually.

316 has good corrosion resistance and is typically used in corrosive applications.  316L is the welding friendly version.  We use both 304 and 316 in the food industry.  However, 316 is usually selected over 304 when the environment is corrosive as it has superior corrosion resistance...especially when exposed to chlorine.  316 is the choice for paper mills applications and 304 and 316 in steel mill applications.  Both for the corrosion resistance and a little for the heat resistance in a steel mill application.  Depended on the applications.  In the steel mills, my old, old company used 316 on pickling and galv lines.  316 is more expensive than 304 L.  I think 10 or 20% higher.  If fluctuates.  Seems like it's closer to 20% lately.  I could be wrong...I'll have to dig some more...but I don't think 316 has the heat resistance other 300 series stainless steels have.  It's still good, but some of the properties suffer a little because of the corrosion resistance due to the molybdeum.  It's mainly known for it's corrosion resistance and not nearly for it's heat resistance.  I used to know other 300 series stainless properties pretty well when recommending stainless for an application, but I only see 304 or 316 in the food industry.  Sorry if my memory is fuzzy.  If I have a little time later, I can look more.

Funny...I used design and sell headers to AKSteel!  Back in the day!!!

good info girl!!! 



are you in food industry?  My wife is a chef.....that's why im inquiring 

[LatinVenom]

Antonio:
Melting point is 2500 to 2550 way higher than 1922 the exhaust temperatures that can be reach on the exhaust manifolds.

[kwtoxman]

Interesting alternative header material talk, but bench racing info too. As LV and I asked earlier (some of which was deleted for no reason), other than the confirmed two noted failures of the wrapped race car example, and a bunch of vague posts, no one has provided actual examples of the stainless headers LNF header failing. Post real data because anecdotes don't mean much.  As LV noted earlier, stainless headers, the vendor of the product will be on the other forum to discuss the statements of failures.

[SKY888]

yes, melting point of 2500 or so.

if we based it on that......engine parts/fenders/etc already melted.

carbide precipitation, heat resistance, corrosion resitance, etc etc.....should all be considered.