Topic: Twincharged Solstice = Turbocharger + Supercharger

[DeepBlueGXP]

What are the things in the third photo?

[Steelmesh]

What are the things in the third photo?

Laminova intercooler cores, were used in the Cobalt SS 2.0 LSJ

http://www.laminova.se/technology/intercooler

High performance
The high performance, compared to that of the common plate style intercoolers, is a result of the extremely large surface area and the unique flow pattern. Laminova core design gives an extremely low pressure drop on the charged air side.

Compact design
Laminova coolers are small, compact and circular. The compact core design makes it easy to install in the inlet manifold. The heat exchanger cores are patented.

[DeepBlueGXP]

ahh, now i understand the coolant leak pictures

[Steelmesh]

Cleaned up the core ends where the new o-rings will seal:




The one end was damaged and crushed in and likely the root cause of the leak. Also, this is why someone figured out the hose clamp method to remove the cores:



*I bent out the dent, filed it and then used anerobic sealer at this location during assembly.  The intake was pressure tested and is not leaking.

[Steelmesh]

It lives! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQ7WR41PbI
*IAT and Boost are miscalibrated

[MattM]

Very very cool!!! Get it running right!

[DeepBlueGXP]

Congrats, very nice

[Sly Bob]

Great thread, lots of good stuff and glad you found to root of the problem.

[Steelmesh]

This thing is pretty wicked, it's not lighting up the tires if I WOT at 2,000 rpm like a V8, but it feels more stout and "happier" in the low RPM range with the SC (as expected).  I am running the SC bypass to open under vacuum, it closes otherwise.  I am taking it easy and still have to take care of a few items on the car so it's back in the garage for now.  I plan to attend the Lingenfelter cars and coffee June 1st with the car, so I am not trying to break it yet.

Referencing the log file below:
- Turbocharger made 15.3 psi (SC inlet side) with a P/R of 2.07
- Supercharger added 10 psi (Intake valve side) with a P/R of 1.65
- Total boost is 25.3 psi
- Measurements taken by 0-5V pressure transducers that I doubled checked calibrations with regulated shop air after installation on the vehicle



I don't think it is making the 444 whp that I made at 25 psi with the turbocharger only.  In addition, I am a little disappointed with the P/R of the Supercharger, I expected this to be higher.

[MattM]

Well.....you can always go with a smaller pulley....

[Steelmesh]

If I can make a SC bypass control work, smaller pulley would be a good idea (assume fun = good).  Right now it's set to only open the SC bypass under vacuum, it's closed in all other areas. At the same boost level at the "intake valve", the twincharger is down on airflow which means down on power. My MAF tube I used with the turbo-only setup was re-used. Still looking into it.  I think I will need to empirical test my swapped 3-bar IAT sensor comparing it to a thermocouple.  If the charge temp is hotter than what the IAT says, that would explain same boost/lower power.

Sound (same as Twincharger WOT pull log below):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEe_QygQAZ8

Twincharger WOT pull:

*The variable "MAP 2bar" is the same pressure transducer as "Boost"
**IC1 IN is the turbo intercooler inlet, IC1 OUT is this turbo intercooler outlet which is also a good estimate of SC inlet pressure


Turbo-only Dyno pull:

[MattM]

Do you think the bypass controller you originally wanted to use is too complicated?  Perhaps try setting it up like zzp did (which seems much less complicated). 

Or was it Performance Autowerks or DDM that actually had a twincharged on an Atom I think?  Maybe you should contact them and ask what they did.

[marksbug]

plumb/make fittings so you can use the low pressure side of the air conditioner line to cool the charge instead of a water cooler..or... use it to cool the water down to lower temps. before I saw this thread I was thinking about using a coblat super on my solstice. havent made up my mind yet,blowers do suck up power...Im not into racing any more mailnly want a funner car and better mpg witch forced induction and rear end gear change should do...possiably trans too....but....dam Im trying to get away from all that stuff Ive done all my life...thus the reason for buying this fun little car...till I found it's a turd. but a pretty turd,and drives nice...just slow. may end upm putting a ebay turbo kit on and just limiting the boost to around 7.....witch should make it more user friendly...not fast but friendly.

[Steelmesh]

plumb/make fittings so you can use the low pressure side of the air conditioner line to cool the charge instead of a water cooler..or... use it to cool the water down to lower temps. before I saw this thread I was thinking about using a coblat super on my solstice. havent made up my mind yet,blowers do suck up power...Im not into racing any more mailnly want a funner car and better mpg witch forced induction and rear end gear change should do...possiably trans too....but....dam Im trying to get away from all that stuff Ive done all my life...thus the reason for buying this fun little car...till I found it's a turd. but a pretty turd,and drives nice...just slow. may end upm putting a ebay turbo kit on and just limiting the boost to around 7.....witch should make it more user friendly...not fast but friendly.

I have looked at those boost coolers that use car A/C.  My A/C is deleted and I am running a huge tilted race radiator upfront, so I am far from reinstalling the A/C system.  I also researched developing and designing an electric water chiller using peltiers, they are quite energy in-efficient so they would require an incredible amount of power to match a mechanical A/C system.  Consider 4kW power at 14 volts is about 286 amps.  This would require an isolated battery system (you wouldn't want the alternator working hard during a WOT event), so may as way increase the voltage to reduce your cable awg, then have a dc-dc converter so the 12v system can charge the higher voltage system while it's not in use.  You can see this has turned into a 100 hour $1000 project at least. 

On the blower sucking power note: If I can bypass the SC and let the TC take over after it's boosted, bypassing the SC would reduce the parasitic losses of the SC. One Ecotec tuner said they saw a 30 hp difference just opening the SC bypass (using a secondary boost controller) on their similar ecotec based twincharger setups using the same supercharger.  I have a bypass controller system designed, but the plan is to finish up open items on the car, to then characterize how the car performs running a purely series twincharger after which I will install my controller to monitor the impacts of bypassing the SC.

[MattM]

Also...one other thing you need to remember is that its not about psi it about volumetric efficiency....even though the turbo is boosting at 16psi it's at a better efficiency range than at 25psi.

You need to look at it this way...if you took the turbo off a 2.4 litre four cylinder and put it on a 3.5 litre v6 it would produce less pressure in the 3.5 litre but would make the same or more power.

By adding the roots blower you've effectively taken a 2.4 4 cylinder and made it a v6 or small v8.  It definitely could make more power on less boost...

[Steelmesh]

Also...one other thing you need to remember is that its not about psi it about volumetric efficiency....even though the turbo is boosting at 16psi it's at a better efficiency range than at 25psi. 

You need to look at it this way...if you took the turbo off a 2.4 litre four cylinder and put it on a 3.5 litre v6 it would produce less pressure in the 3.5 litre but would make the same or more power.

By adding the roots blower you've effectively taken a 2.4 4 cylinder and made it a v6 or small v8.  It definitely could make more power on less boost...

On my exact setup with my current experience as of this typing I can tell you that at 25 psi of boost 'at the intake valve' the twincharger is setup is flowing less air therefore producing less power. When I say 'at the intake valve', let's go into detail for both setups to see exactly where I measured boost which indeed shows a slight difference in placement however my analysis assumes the pressure drop between the N/A intake port and the back of the intake valve is under 2% aka minimal in this application where you can see the LSJ vacuum port is near the intake ports physically:

- Turbo-only setup by tapping off the LE5 brake booster signal which taps into the N/A intake manifold under the TB.


- Twincharger setup by tapping off the 'post-SC' intercooler (after the intercooler) side of the intake manifold near the middle cylinders.


Boost is measured using 0-5v pressure transducers in both setups going into HPT. My determination on less power at the same boost level with the twincharger is based on "butt dyno" and MAF sensor data and consider both setups are using the same MAF tube.  At high flow levels in theory the accuracy of the MAF should be pretty close, a mcintosh vs. fuji apple comparison.  The Turbo is boosting to 15 psi which is about 290 whp via Dynojet actual chassis dyno data and the SC is adding 10 psi or a P/R of 1.65 (15 psi * 1.65 = 25 psi).

Have you considered that I am using a SC designed for a 2.0 liter engine on an engine with 20% more displacement.  It's clear I will gain substantial performance by spinning the rotors faster to compensate for this significant difference in displacement. I was recently informed by a very good source that their 2.4 LE5 with a stock LSJ pulley made 6 psi.  I am running 3.2" on my SC, being driven by a 12% underdrive balancer which makes my SC pulley equivalent to about a 3.6" pulley on the M62 Cobalt SS which is quite tame.

Give it 2-3 months, I'll be real world qualified in either:
1) 2.4L Ecotec LE5 twincharger tuning
2) 2.4L Ecotec engine rebuilding

[Steelmesh]

Glorious Kappa Engine Bay:



Top 10 best garage inventions holding her up:

*Sorry Norm

[MattM]

On my exact setup with my current experience as of this typing I can tell you that at 25 psi of boost 'at the intake valve' the twincharger is setup is flowing less air therefore producing less power. When I say 'at the intake valve', let's go into detail for both setups to see exactly where I measured boost which indeed shows a slight difference in placement however my analysis assumes the pressure drop between the N/A intake port and the back of the intake valve is under 2% aka minimal in this application where you can see the LSJ vacuum port is near the intake ports physically:

- Turbo-only setup by tapping off the LE5 brake booster signal which taps into the N/A intake manifold under the TB.


- Twincharger setup by tapping off the 'post-SC' intercooler (after the intercooler) side of the intake manifold near the middle cylinders.


Boost is measured using 0-5v pressure transducers in both setups going into HPT. My determination on less power at the same boost level with the twincharger is based on "butt dyno" and MAF sensor data and consider both setups are using the same MAF tube.  At high flow levels in theory the accuracy of the MAF should be pretty close, a mcintosh vs. fuji apple comparison.  The Turbo is boosting to 15 psi which is about 290 whp via Dynojet actual chassis dyno data and the SC is adding 10 psi or a P/R of 1.65 (15 psi * 1.65 = 25 psi).

Have you considered that I am using a SC designed for a 2.0 liter engine on an engine with 20% more displacement.  It's clear I will gain substantial performance by spinning the rotors faster to compensate for this significant difference in displacement. I was recently informed by a very good source that their 2.4 LE5 with a stock LSJ pulley made 6 psi.  I am running 3.2" on my SC, being driven by a 12% underdrive balancer which makes my SC pulley equivalent to about a 3.6" pulley on the M62 Cobalt SS which is quite tame.

Give it 2-3 months, I'll be real world qualified in either:
1) 2.4L Ecotec LE5 twincharger tuning
2) 2.4L Ecotec engine rebuilding

Steelmesh....The one thing you need to understand is that I was one of the very few people to put an M62 onto a 2.5 litre v6 probe gt more than 15 years ago.  I would say (regarding experience with an m62) I have the MOST experience with this supercharger than most people you are talking with.  In fact the gen of my m62 was older than the one you are using thus probably less efficient.

On my 2.5 litre I spun the supercharger fast enough to make approximately 8-10psi of boost.  This netted me two separate dynos of exactly 245 whp.  The stock 2.5 litre v6 made about 150 whp so at 8-10 psi I was gaining 95whp.  I KNOW for a FACT based on rpm calculators that EATON put out at that time for the m62 that I was running the supercharger very close to it's efficiency limit.

Keep in mind that the max efficiency you will see out of the M62 is around 10psi and 460cfm which is spinning the supercharger around 14,000 rpms.  More than that and you are raising heat exponentially higher than cfm which is closing in on a net loss in hp. 

The roots blower doens't build "boost" like a turbo.  It is essentially a big air pump and the way it gets boost is to push more air into the intake than the engine can handle (excess air=boost amount).  In essence, with a roots blower...You could have a 2.4 litre with stock exhaust make 10psi then put an after market exhaust on and make 8psi but still make more power with the performance exhaust.

The other thing you need to realize is that you are using a compound setup with the turbo feeding the supercharger.  So...it's not about making more power with the supercharger...It's about making more power throughout the powerband.  If you made 450whp with just the turbo...you had a decent amount of lag as a result.  The supercharger (even at 10psi) is allowing that turbo to work a LOT easier in a lower part of the efficiency map to make near the same amount of hp. 

So again....I need you to understand that measuring boost is only telling you a very small part of the story.  Maybe you are making less overall boost, but, if everything is done correctly (no leaks etc) you will be making MORE power over a wider range of the power band. 

Also, it might feel slower to you because in the straight turbo setup you have lag...when you floor it there is some time before the turbo gets up to speed then when it does it's a big hit.  With the supercharger you are at a higher hp and tq level when you floor it than when you were just on a turbo.  The reason it doesn't feel as fast to you is because there is no lag.  In your mind what would feel faster to you?  Floor it start out with 150whp then bam turbo kicks in and you're up to 450whp, or floor it start out with 250whp then turbo kicks in and you're up to 450whp.   

[MattM]

One other question....Right now...are you running a boost sensor off the turbo (before it gets to the supercharger) and also a boost sensor after the supercharger? 

If you are...and the turbo (before the supercharger is boost 15psi) then the sensor after both of them is saying that it's getting a total of 25psi....what that means is that your supercharger is not spinning fast enough to produce 10psi of boost.

Reason I say that....In a compound setup boost is multiplied not added....

Here you go...

For example, if the Eaton is pullied for 10 psi w/o the turbo, that means Pout = 10 + 14.7 = 24.7, and hence, Rp = 24.7/14.7 = 1.68. If the turbo were pushing 8 psi of boost at its outlet, that means a pressure ratio of 1.54 for the turbo. Therefore, the total pressure ratio is 1.68*1.54 = 2.59, which would mean a total boost pressure of (2.59 - 1)*14.7 = 23.4 psi !

[Steelmesh]

one thing you need to understand

The other thing you need to realize is

So again....I need you to understand

This type of communication comes off rude to me (my opinion) and the inclination is to not be very open to your ideas after you lead sentences like this and then tell me stuff I already know.  I expect that you totally did not mean it in this way, but take a look in your quote above at what I am getting at and try to envision my shoes (sketchers).

What is your experience level with Ecotec Twincharging design and tuning in the real world?  Of course that's a rhetorical question, we both have very limited knowledge and as you know there is surprisingly not a lot of detailed information accessible on twincharging like a book or super tutorial youtube video; but while typing this I have just glanced over at a Twincharged car in my backyard, so I suspect my learning curve is about to explode and hopefully no pun is intended haha

[MattM]

This type of communication comes off rude to me (my opinion) and the inclination is to not be very open to your ideas after you lead sentences like this and then tell me stuff I already know.  I expect that you totally did not mean it in this way, but take a look in your quote above at what I am getting at and try to envision my shoes (sketchers).

What is your experience level with Ecotec Twincharging design and tuning in the real world?  Of course that's a rhetorical question, we both have very limited knowledge and as you know there is surprisingly not a lot of detailed information accessible on twincharging like a book or super tutorial youtube video; but while typing this I have just glanced over at a Twincharged car in my backyard, so I suspect my learning curve is about to explode and hopefully no pun is intended haha

Sorry.  I was replying to your comment about me considering that you are using a supercharger designed for a 2.0 and you have 20% more displacement etc.  My point was...yes I have considered it..I supercharged my 2.5 with an m62 15 years ago, tuned it myself etc.  I Def understand the displacement difference as I dealt with the same thing. 

Didn't mean to sound rude just pointing some things out.  Also I posted a video of a kids twincharged probe in this thread I think.  That vid was from 2006 and I helped him tune his megasquirt for it.  I'm really familiar with a compound twincharger setup.

As I said I Def didn't mean to sound rude..I was pointing out some things that your posts didn't mention to help you that's all.  If you know all of that I'm sorry to rehash.

[Steelmesh]

Let's share some more info:

Steelmesh....The one thing you need to understand is that I was one of the very few people to put an M62 onto a 2.5 litre v6 probe gt more than 15 years ago.  I would say (regarding experience with an m62) I have the MOST experience with this supercharger than most people you are talking with.  In fact the gen of my m62 was older than the one you are using thus probably less efficient.

I invested 200+ hours over 12 months (didn't do anything over the winter doh) where I built a functional 500 bhp Turbocharged Solstice that I raced then converted to a M62 Twincharged Solstice before your very eyes. And I am very proud of this fact and I'm sure my mommy is too 

I think supercharging the probe is unique and a cool project, so I hope your mommy was also proud of you.

On my 2.5 litre I spun the supercharger fast enough to make approximately 8-10psi of boost.  This netted me two separate dynos of exactly 245 whp.  The stock 2.5 litre v6 made about 150 whp so at 8-10 psi I was gaining 95whp.  I KNOW for a FACT based on rpm calculators that EATON put out at that time for the m62 that I was running the supercharger very close to it's efficiency limit.

Slowbalt shared this:

Keep in mind that the max efficiency you will see out of the M62 is around 10psi and 460cfm which is spinning the supercharger around 14,000 rpms.  More than that and you are raising heat exponentially higher than cfm which is closing in on a net loss in hp. 

Based on the 5th Gen Map above, your supercharger was very efficient.  Did you use an LSJ M62 specifically? Was it ported?

Maybe it's not directly related but something I thought of: I heard very recently from a racecar builder (HP Academy interview) that for max output applications the compressor map is completely useless because they literally fall "right" off the map, pun intended.

The roots blower doens't build "boost" like a turbo.  It is essentially a big air pump and the way it gets boost is to push more air into the intake than the engine can handle (excess air=boost amount).  In essence, with a roots blower...You could have a 2.4 litre with stock exhaust make 10psi then put an after market exhaust on and make 8psi but still make more power with the performance exhaust.

1) Same intake runners
2) Same intake valves
3) Same hotside

You either know the answer or not: Why does 25 psi "behind the intake valve" flow less air with the Twincharger setup versus 25 psi "behind the intake valve" with the Turbo-only setup. 

25 psi of more dense 85F air entering the combustion chamber with Twincharger = less airflow
25 psi of less dense 123F air entering the combustion chamber with the Turbo-only = more airflow
This is not very intuitive, please stop and think about what I am saying.  Hot air is less dense, Cold air is more dense.  1 cuft of Cold air has more molecules than 1 cuft of Hot air.

Let's not pretend we actually know what we're talking about and write essays with no real points but mostly speculations. I am still waiting for a PT engineer at work to answer this exact question in 1 sentence, that is the person I will pay attention to.  Until then I'd like to figure it out myself because that would be cool.  To me it sounds like if my temperature scaling is messed up, that could explain this whole thing and I would move on from it and leave it in the dust.  Beyond faulty instrumentation is deeper analysis of the system, I like to draw things out to start sometimes it can solve the problem sometimes it's useless.  And it's kinda funny that I don't actually have a ton of real tangible data points for my exact application / hardware either, so when my situation allows it I will take the opportunity to log more data for fun fun analysis. I have the power of the data, that should make people suspicious that I have potential to know quite a lot, very soon.

The other thing you need to realize is that you are using a compound setup with the turbo feeding the supercharger.  So...it's not about making more power with the supercharger...It's about making more power throughout the powerband.  If you made 450whp with just the turbo...you had a decent amount of lag as a result.  The supercharger (even at 10psi) is allowing that turbo to work a LOT easier in a lower part of the efficiency map to make near the same amount of hp. 

So again....I need you to understand that measuring boost is only telling you a very small part of the story.  Maybe you are making less overall boost, but, if everything is done correctly (no leaks etc) you will be making MORE power over a wider range of the power band. 

Of course agreed except I disagree with calling it a "compound setup" only because it's confusing and a term which multi-turbo setups identify with. Twincharging technically uses Superchargers and Turbos.

For quite a while I have been very open to saying stuff like "It's my anti-lag device" and "It won't add peak HP, just area under the curve" when talking about twincharging my car, like those are the lines I'll be using at car shows and tracks when showing it off to strangers.

So again....I need you to understand that measuring boost is only telling you a very small part of the story.  Maybe you are making less overall boost, but, if everything is done correctly (no leaks etc) you will be making MORE power over a wider range of the power band. 

What made you think I didn't understand that boost is relative to many factors? Did you notice I have been focusing on MASS AIR FLOW and mentioning boost as a reference point? The reason is because mass air flow is a very good indicator of air flow, air flow is a very good indicator of fuel flow, fuel flow is a very good indicator of energy potential of the intake charge.

Also, it might feel slower to you because in the straight turbo setup you have lag...when you floor it there is some time before the turbo gets up to speed then when it does it's a big hit.  With the supercharger you are at a higher hp and tq level when you floor it than when you were just on a turbo.  The reason it doesn't feel as fast to you is because there is no lag.  In your mind what would feel faster to you?  Floor it start out with 150whp then bam turbo kicks in and you're up to 450whp, or floor it start out with 250whp then turbo kicks in and you're up to 450whp.

It feels slower because I am literally down on power and the SC is causing parasitic losses.  You have an interesting imagination otherwise 

[MattM]

Am dealing with two different people?!  You literally post a nice, kind of understanding post above saying that my post seemed rude but giving the benefit of the doubt...then I post explaining why I made the post and apologizing about coming off rude...Then you come back after my apology with literally a straight up PURPOSELY rude post.  Wtf...

I guess after reading your last post that I'll just retract my apology all together...Again..yes I have LOTS of experience with this blower and tuning a twincharge setup that ran 11s.

I'm just going to back out of your thread...good luck.

PEACE!

[Steelmesh]

Proper rear differential mount (2007+ auto trans diff mount) with an ES bushing:


Pretty easy swap:

[marksbug]

 I usualy use poly ur a thane ( 3m 5200) and fill the voids in the rubber mounts. works great. unlike the polyurathans hard shit sold by many that crumble when you relly dont want the to do so...( I had a red polly shifter joint crumble to dust as I was fixing to wax a stang with my bug....good thing traffic changed real fast as I only had 2 gears that worked.1&3...that would of made a mess on the road.......if we had gone for it. I was 2 miles from home witch was also good. ) I use the 5200 for engine mounts , trans mounts, suspension" compliance" bushings  and what ever I need it for. it takes 24 hours to set up, so sometimes some way of holding it in place will be required,(tape,cardboard plastic etc) Ive even used it to make bump stops taller..permanent and dosent crack or degrade. small tube or caulking tube.they do make a fast set but I havent used it for this.( 3m 4200,both come in white and black)and some off brands., marine stores and some hardware stores.( my wife is a west marine manager so I get it there) keep up with the great work!!!  do all the kappas have that type rear mount? looks just like my 2006 manual.