Topic: Upgrade Suggestions

[kgschlosser]

Y'all need to go watch Turbo Yoda explain that most "complex" turbos are designed for fuel efficiency/emissions/economy of manufacture, not power.

I'll try and dig up the link after work.

I will watch the video this evening.
I did want to mention that dual scroll is not new technology. It has actually be around almost since the advent of the turbo. Dual scroll is not about fuel economy and there are dyno tests that prove the benefits.

[Uranium-238]

I will watch the video this evening.
I did want to mention that dual scroll is not new technology. It has actually be around almost since the advent of the turbo. Dual scroll is not about fuel economy and there are dyno tests that prove the benefits.

He goes over dual scroll, as well as the advantages of larger housings. It's just a good no BS primer, and he's good about pointing out that you can only do so much with a small engine.

[kgschlosser]

OK so the adapter is going to be made This will go from the OE exhaust manifold flange to the T4 divided flange. The guy sai pretty much anything that needs to be fabricated he can probably do. From down pipe flanges to header flanges. throttle body spacers things like that.

I contacted Borg Warner and got lucky I think and ended up talking to a guy that is going to email me either the schematics for the OE turbo including the flange or the AutoCAD save file for it. So the guy making the adapter is going to be able to make an exact match to it. he is going to make it out of stainless and the cost Is 100 bucks. It would be more if I wanted to keep the designs. I am not interested in owning the designs so he is going to keep them and be able to make more. Once I get the drawings over to him it will take only a few hours to design it and mill it.

When I get the part I will post some photos of it and post his information so anyone looking for adapters or other components that need to be made will be able to give the guy a call to see if he can do it.

If this part checks out and is a good quality that is going to create a lot of turbo choices that can be done with a lower cost!..

I simply couldn't wrap my head around how a 1100 dollar Borg Warner turbo was priced at close to 2600 because it had 2 oil lines and an adapter. That kit price should come down into the < 1500 dollar area.

Last animal to cover is the down pipe. There may be enough room for me to have the same guy make an adapter to go from the OE flange to a V-Band I am going to make some measurements tomorrow and see what I am dealing with. I may have to cut the OE flange off the down pipe and weld on a V-Band flange if there isn't enough room to fit an adapter. If the O2 sensor wasn't in such a crappy location I wouldn't have this problem.

Does anyone know if I can use a 90 degree silicone connector to connect from the compressor to the charge pipe? This turbo has a vertical compressor outlet. I can order a replacement compressor housing that is horizontal that would add 500 to the build price. I would like to not have to do that.

[LatinVenom]

Check with WERKS, I thought they had something like that since they use the BG turbos.

[kgschlosser]

Check with WERKS, I thought they had something like that since they use the BG turbos.

I contacted them yesterday. They said they would be able to custom make one but I would have to send them my exhaust manifold, the adapter and the turbo in order for them to do it. Not sure why that would need to be done because it's almost the same turbo they use in their kits. spacing the turbo out off the manifold 1/2" for an adapter is easy to do as well.

I know that the Werks kit uses an altered version of the BorgWarner turbo. I am going to take a look as see if BorgWarner has a turbine housing option for that turbo that is the 4 bolt outlet. If they don't then what Werks racing is using is something that has been altered. If it is a BorgWarner housing I would imagine that the mating surface for the 4 bolt would be in the same location as the V-Band flange. I came across a forum post of a guy that had the non twin scroll version of the turbo and it had the V-Band flange, he was able to cut the 4 bolt flange off the down pipe and weld the V-Band flange on. I am going to send him a PM and see what kinds of issues he ran into with that.

[LatinVenom]

Not sure if you have been to this section of the forum.
Here is a link to WERKS pictures of their WR3 and WR4 maybe the picture will give you an idea of what they are using.
http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,11457.0.html

[kgschlosser]

Those photos are not what they are currently selling. But in those photos it appears to be a BorgWarner 6758 but for the life of me I do not know what the turbine housing is. BorgWarner doesn't offer that turbine housing as an option for the B1 frame. It's got the OE flange on it without the divider and it also has the 4 bolt outlet just like the OE does.

From looking at the turbo the outlet flange has to be on the same plane as the stock flange. meaning it is in the exact same position of it there is a difference it is really small. With what I am wanting to do it is going to push the turbo away from the motor about 1/2 an inch. This shouldn't be an issue if the turbo has the v-band outlet like the one I want to get has. I will be able to "roll" the down pipe to make up for the 1/2" I will need to tweak the flange at the end of the downpipe or on the exhaust bit it shouldn't be a huge amount probably about 1/8". I should be able to order just about any available down pipe for the solstice and have the OF flange cut off the thing and have the V-Band flange welded on.

The trick is finding a place that will do a right proper weld. I can cut the OE flange off and get the whole thing mocked up and marked so all I would have to do is bring the flange and downpipe to a welder and have it welded up. It shouldn't take that long to weld them together. I would say about 30 minutes.


This is the photo of the WR-4 from their site.

http://www.performanceautowerks.com/catalog/images/IMG_9003.JPG

The 2 setups are not the same. the one on their site shows an external gate and the one you linked to is an internal.

It looks like they are using a custom turbine housing I have not been able to locate any turbine housings for that turbo that have the T31 flange or similiar much less the OE inlet flange.

[LatinVenom]

The WR-4 is NOT a 6758 but a 7163, on the link I posted the 1st picture is the WR-4 ((BG7163) the 2nd picture is the WR-3 (BG6758). Both of these turbos from Werks are single scroll and not the dual scroll version.
I could be wrong but when you order from them you have a choice of internal or external gate. I do not know who makes the flange for them, but ZZP also uses the same one.
That was the reason I keep mentioning DDM an the conversion plate DDM was advertising at one time. With that plate you can then use the BG-6758 (T25 version) as it comes from the factory, by just bolting the plate to the OEM exhaust manifold. DDM should be able to tell you who made it for them. I know is not T4 but the same vendor should be able to manufacture one.
I did a search and found the link, but the link to DDM an pictures no longer works. As you read please ignore J2n comments, DDM NEVER had a new manifold, even though I posted it in my comments, but it was ignored.
Here is the link:
https://www.solsticeforum.com/threads/ddm-efr-6758-kit.115977/#post-1687633

[kgschlosser]

you are correct with the werks racing turbo model numbers. That was my bad I'm sorry for that. In the end it is still a B1 frame. They only offer external waste gates. So their kits all use this custom turbine housing. The custom housing has the 4 bolt outlet flange and the OE input flange and also a place to connect the waste gate.

They welded a 90 degree elbow onto the compressor housing and that compressor housing might be a borgwarner housing It is hard to tell from the photos they have on their website. Essentially this is what you get..

a borgwarner super core B1 frame turbo.
and unknown turbine housing
a modified compressor housing
and a wastegate
oil feed line
oil return line

Now from looking at the photos there is no BOV on that compressor housing and this is not addressed anywhere in the description. So I am not sure how they are handling that portion.


from what we know you are getting a $900.00 super core, a $40.00 90 degree elbow, a $200.00 waste gate, $40.00 in oil lines. If that turbine housing cost more then 250 bucks I would be surprised. They have powder coating options for the turbine housing so my guess is that it is not made form stainless which would be a downgrade from the ones that borgwarner sells for this frame. and their twin scroll housing costs around 400 which is the most expensive one they have.

what I am getting is the kit is $1430.00 dollars in parts and the selling price is 2600. Now I believe they provide a base tune as well with the kit. what they do not tell you is that it is going to cost another 500 to be able to use the tune because of the additional purchases needed to use it.

so now you are at 3100 just to be able to use the thing as it sits with no other upgrades or changes. But wait.. That is with the WG venting to atmosphere which is not a good thing because of emissions. so now there is yet another 400.00 to fix that problem. and that also turns into yet another problem because of the O2 sensor getting tripped due to the high flow cat.. My point being is that all of a sudden that 2600 kit is going to end up being 4000.00.

You can get the same results costing you
Turbo 1100.00
90 degree silicone elbow  20.00
OE manifold flange to turbo flange adapter  100.00
3" v-band to OE 4 bolt outlet    100.00
oil hoses   40.00
trifecta elite tune 688.00

2048.00 total.

the only differences are the external gate and the high flow cat. and the cat is the only thing that I believe will make any kind of a difference in the power output. Plus the issue of the BOV using the kit is not known. where as the BOV is included in the above.

But with the elite tune you do with trifecta that is going to be a custom tune to your climate and you specific setup. It is not going to be a base tune like the one provided with the kit. So chances are you will end up with more power from that then what the cat is able to provide.

The welded on 90 degree elbow kinds threw me when I saw that, borgwarner makes a compressor housing that has a 90 degree out on it or use a silicone elbow. I find the weld to be not very attractive and almost "hackish".

I am sure it is a fantastic kit. but for the price it is not worth it in my opinion. I looked at the Hahn Racecraft kits. It to is also a really high price tag. But there have been horror stories recently of getting product from Hahn Racecraft. I also checked out RPM Motorsports and sent them an e-mail. No response. if they aren't responding to people trying to purchase then how are they handling customers after the purchase... That leaves werks as the only place to buy a turbo kit. In order to hit the numbers they have posted the total investment would be close to 7 grand. in order to get 120-130 additional ponies. That works out to about 54 bucks a pony. where as the same results can be had for about 30 a pony or closer to 4 grand. With almost all of the parts being identical except for the waste gate and the turbine housing.

So you tell me. Is the waste gate and turbine housing worth $3,000.00. Will those things give you anything for your 3,000.00? I don't think there is. and if there is I am sure it is not worth the price tag.


I have spent a HUGE amount of time locating information and reading regarding using the 6758 turbo.  My only hangups were the exhaust manifold flange and also the turbine outlet flange. I have confirmed that neither of these things will be an issue even using the twin scroll turbine housing which is only 1/4" longer from the flange to the end of the turbo. There is more then a 1/4" play in the exhaust hangers and the O2 sensor is more then far enough away from the firewall, then there is the adapter from the v-band to OE on the exhaust. But again this is going to be a small amount as well and there is more then enough room between the cat and the firewall. Worst case scenario if maybe a new flange would have to be welded onto the exhaust to shorten it up a smidge.

Even in that post you linked to you specifically being up the whole thing about a modified turbo and that it would be better to go with an adapter. I believe we are on the same page as far as this goes. I am fairly certain that the turbine housing is NOT going to be as good a quality in material and also in manufacturing as the one that comes with the turbo. The welded on 90 degree also makes me question the quality of the whole thing as well. Reminds me of Orange County Choppers (when they first started). find tidbits of things laying around and weld it onto a bike.

[kgschlosser]

well I have everything except for the turbo and the exhaust ordered up. I don't know if I want to have an exhaust custom made or order a prebuilt. has anyone upgraded their exhaust and cn tell me how the sound is?

This is the parts list thus far.

Werks high flow catted downpipe
Werks charge pipes
Werks cold air intake
Werks 3 bar map sensors
Kappasphere reBar
Werks Intercooler
Werks front frame brace
Werks front strut tower brace
DDM Works 90 degree silicone turbo outlet.
DDM works pro beam
DDM Works silicone intercooler couplers.
DDM Works silicone upper radiator hose
DDM Works silicone silicone intake to charge pipe coupler
DDM works T-Bar clamps
DDM Works short throw shifter
OE to t4 divided turbo adapter plate
RK Sport Hood
RK Sport side skirts
RK Sport bumper cover
Used drivers door
Used OE door glass
Used window regulator
Used window motor
Used driver and passenger seat belts
Used driver and passenger mirrors


need to order
BorgWarner 6758-G turbo
OE turbo outlet flange to 3" V-Band flange adapter
Turbo oil lines
Turbo coolant lines

I made my own custom fenders. I am just finishing them up. I should be done with them today if I can get this crap sorted with the primer cracking on one of the fenders... I sanded the damned thing down again and started over with the primer and would you believe the thing cracked AGAIN!! It's not the primer because the same can used on the other fender worked just fine. I put a super light coat on so it's not that. I gave the fender a nice washing in alcohol and let it sit for 30 minutes to dry. Not that either. I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is with this one fender. The cracks are showing up where areas were sanded down to bare metal, over filled portions and also over where the OE paint is still left. It doesn't matter. It's driving me bananas!. This last time it didn't crack anywhere need as bad as it did the first time. I might be able to get away with spraying over them.. we will see what happens.

[Sol Asylum]

Some where here on this forum there used to be a thread of the different exhaust systems that included video so you could hear what they sounded like.  With any luck the links still work, probably 50-50 on that one as they are probably 10 yrs old or more by now.

Here is one of them, there may be more.

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,351.0.html

Solo exhaust is a vendor here and by all accounts they do a great job with customer support.  We used to get a discount don't know if we still do and they can do custom stuff too.  Their sales rep here used to be a kappa owner.

[LatinVenom]

Solo would be a good place to start, I do not think you would be disappointed.

[Uranium-238]

I had a Solo catback straight pipe setup on my car, and loved it. Can't go wrong with Solo for these cars.

[Gentleman Jack]

Anyone got Spiky’s contact info at Solo?  Steve Marino... right?

[Kelu]

Anyone got Spiky’s contact info at Solo?  Steve Marino... right?

Yes:

Steve Mariano

Sales and Customer Service
516-655-9002
(7 days a week, until midnight EST)

goingsolo2@hotmail.com

Taken from: https://shop-solo-performance.com/en/

[kgschlosser]

Here is a photo of one of the fenders I modified. I didn't care for the way the DuraFlex one looked and alo the fact that you needed to modify the battery tray and also the washer bottle in order to get the fenders to fit. I looked at Norms fenders and the one fender has to small of a vent and the "hood scoops" on the other fender are not all that attractive. So I decided to make a fender that can bolt on with only modification to the fender support needing to be done. Blue is not the color of my car, I just shot the thing with some paint I had kicking around to see what it would look like. I still have to do some more clean up on them and have them painted by an auto body shop which will get done when the rest of the car is finished.

Thay are coming out pretty good. Because I had to cut the cross brace on the fender support I added a 1"x1"x1/8" aluminum L channel to the back side of the fender long the edge where the wheelhouse liner screws to the fender. I kerf cut the L Channel so it follows the shape of the fender. I have it fiberglassed to the fender and the bolt that goes through the bottom of the fender to the support attached to the frame also goes through the L channel. I added a piece of 1"x1/8" aluminum flat bar and fiberglassed it to the backs of the vents and also to the fender at the bottom. I bolted the bar to the fender support at the top.

The fenders are solid, My concern was with the bump stops for the hood being on the fender and the hood impacting the fender and causing it to flex because of the removal of the cross brace. I am pretty sure that with the addition of the support I will not end up with cracked paint on the thing if the hood impacts the bump stops.

I can shoot some photos of them primered and on the car if you like. The problem is without a hood and bumper on the car it is going to be hard to judge how it is going to really look. I think that with the harder lines on the RK sport bumper cover it is going to be a nice way to make the transition from the bumper to the curvy door and back end of the car. The other thing is the size of the vents are large it is 3" wide at the top and tapers down to 1" wide at the bottom and each vent is 4.5" tall. I also set the bents back from the wheel opening about 3 1/2" This will provide enough room between the wheel well liner and the vent to get plunty of movement of air. It also places the vents right at the spot on the fender where it starts to flare out. So the plane of the vents maintains the same plane that the back portion of the fender is on until I get past any obstructions and then the vents curve into the car to make the vent openings much larger.




Here is an image where you can see the size of the vent openings and also how the ventys curve in to make the larger openings. You can also see the L channel I added. the L channel is 3 1/2 inches away from the vent openings so it does not hinder air movement into the vent nor will it be able to be seen.




I am interested in hearing peoples thoughts on them.

Note: I did make the fenders in my house fiberglass, bondo and painted them. I have 3 charcoal air filters that are 5' tall and 1 1/2 foot in diameter each fitted with a 10"  1000 CFM fan and also a muffler. You would never know I was doing that kind of work in my house.

[kgschlosser]

and thanks for the info on the exhaust. I already ordered the Werks racing catted downpipe. I did this because they are using their cat and pipe attached to the BG 6758 without issue. Tho there really shouldn't be an issue it's still good peace of mind.

Werks is also supplying me with the Oil feed line and the coolant lines for the BG 6758 so now the only thing left is getting everything I ordered installed and then messing about with the ideal way to attach the downpipe to the turbo. I don't know yet if an adapter can be used or changing the flange on the downpipe will need to be done, I have to get the rest of the things installed and see what happens from there. I am going to hold off on the exhaust until I can get that portion of it done. If I am able to use an adapter it is going to move the downpipe closer to the firewall and I might need to shorten up the intermediate pipe on the exhaust so it doesn't put any stress on the downpipe and also so it doesn't push the exhaust out the back of the car further. 1" can be the difference between something rubbing and also will make the tips stick to far out of the back of the car.

Shorten up the intermediate pipe is far easier to do then changing out the flange on the down pipe. I will call Solo and see if they would make me a kit that has a shorter intermediate pipe if the whole setup goes in how I am hoping it is going to fit.

I am going to finish up pulling the old turbo out and I have some rough dimensions of the new turbo and I wil make a mock up of it from wood to see how the positioning is going to be This is going to give me an idea of the direction I will need to take.

[Sol Asylum]

With you having paint issues already, you might want to talk to the body shop you plan to have paint the car and make sure you are not using a paint/primer that is incompatible with what they will be using.  It could save you a bunch on paint prep down the road.

[kgschlosser]

The reason why I primered them is so I could see spots that needed fixing. and typically there is no to much of an issue with primers being compatible with paint. It's paint being compatible with clear coats or other paints. but even if the primer needs to be taken off it only takes about 10-15 minutes per fender so it would be a non issue anyway. The issues I had with the primer cracking I believe was because the primer was flashing in flight to the fender. This contaminated the surface. once I sanded down the fender to the OE paint then washed in alcohol and let it sit over night it painted fine the next day. I moved a bit closer to the fender when spraying. The humidity here averages about 15% and where I painted the fenders is about 67 degrees. the humidity is super low almost to low for using a spray type of paint causes the paint to flash crazy fast. By time I get finished painting the fender where I started is already dry to the touch. I let it sit 30 minutes and then hit it with another coat wait an hour and wet sand with 320 and 400 fix any blemishes and then hit it with another 2 coats of primer. There are a few minor spots I have to still correct that became visible in the sunlight. I will take care of those while they are on the car.

My hood and body kist should have shipped yesterday. Tho I have not gotten any tracking number or a phone call from the shipping company to set up a delivery date and time. I am going to call again to ask what is going on.. RK Sport has a posted turn around time of 5-7 days for fiberglass. It has been 3 weeks already. where the parts are coming from is a 10 hour drive. so shipping should be at most 3 days.


What do you think of the design and also the functionality aspect of the fenders???? and also how I went about modifying them?

[kgschlosser]

I ordered the turbo today from Werks. I got a good price on it at 1675 when retail is 2400. I also ordered the High PSI wastegate actuator (canister) from them as well even tho the turbo is capable of 31 PSI they do not provide an actuator that will allow the turbo to get to that boost so a different one needed to be purchased. I am not sure when the parts from Werks is going to ship he may wait until he gets the turbo from BorgWarner and then ship everything at once I haven't asked.