Topic: Some comments on the entire "Supporting Vendor" issue.

[BIO Hazard]

Seems to be a lot of posts on the forum this month about the entire supporting vendor issue and I just wanted to chime in with my 

The purpose of any forum is to bring people together with a common interest so that they can exchange ideas, interact socially, help one another, offer opinions, and share information. We are all here because we share a common affection (or some may say addiction ) for the KAPPA Vehicles manufactured by GM.

Web forums are not free and this website is not free for Joe to run. Joe has a number of expenses related to maintenance and operation to offer this forum to us. There are two options for him to recoup some of his expenses:

1 - Supporting Members who are kind enough to pay for a yearly or life time membership.

2 - Supporting Vendors who have products or services they provide for the KAPPA platform and make a yearly contribution (which is higher than a yearly Supporting Member contribution) so that they can offer them to us as KAPPA Owners & Enthusiasts.

In an act of sheer brilliance, Joe has wisely set up an affordable fee structure to encourage vendors no matter how big or small to become as Supporting Vendors of this forum. If you are in the business of KAPPA Goods or Services you would have to be crazy not to join as a Supporting Vendor. The price is very affordable and easily recouped. This is a great environment and offers spectacular exposure for your KAPPA goods and/or services.

In my honest opinion, the more reliable & trustworthy Supporting Vendors that are here, the better it is for us as KAPPA owners and Kappa Performance Forum members. (Please take note that I did say "Reliable and Trustworthy" as this is a critical element for anyone to be a Supporting Vendor).

The KAPPA platform is great and we all have a passion for it. Lets face it there are a number of areas within the original GM KAPPA design that can be significantly enhanced, modified, and outright replaced with superior products offered by the Supporting Vendors on this forum. If we did not have aftermarket manufactures, parts suppliers, and supporting vendors we would have to settle for whatever GM gave us.

I will tell you this, without the Supporting Vendor program that Joe has established here, there are a some parts (that are now available) that would have never made it into production for us to purchase as KAPPA Owners. 

COMPETITION BETWEEN SUPPORTING VENDORS     

Most of us here do live in North America where competition is accepted and is part of any business. Competition for the consumer is a good thing because it keeps businesses on their toes. Businesses and Supporting Vendors have to be sure that they are offering a quality product at an affordable price that is in line with their competition. There is nothing wrong with healthy competition.

There is a difference between healthy competition and unethical business practices.

Healthy competition is where you take an original concept and make it your own by significantly adding to, improving on, or modifying the design to make it uniquely different. IE By changing the overall design, functionality, integrity, shape, thickness, and type of materials used ~OR~ Offer more options ie colors, logos, and textures.

An unethical business practice is when someone steals another vendors concept/design, produces something very similar with no significant changes, and then markets/sells the product under the same name of the original vendor. That is not right and should never be tolerated.

Take any of the KAPPA Platforms (Daewoo, Opel, Pontiac, or Saturn), any product developer/vendor should be able to find something to produce or offer for these cars without treading on others. Do some very basic research and you will see that I am right.

In my opinion, I would like to see more vendors here that have something NEW, DIFFERENT, AND CREATIVELY UNIQUE to offer us as KAPPA Owners. As I have mentioned, there is a number of untapped ideas and possibilities to explore.

NEGATIVE COMMENTS BETWEEN VENDORS

Vendors who take part in bashing or disparaging someone else's concept, design, product, or service should not be tolerated. Joe and the Global Moderators do a good job at "policing" this when it happens. A successful business/vendor will highlight the features and benefits of their own design. They will factually compare their products to other available designs on the market without mentioning the competitor by name or resulting to insults and negative comments. Put your products out there, point out the features and benefits, state the facts, and let the consumer make the decision. If you have done everything else right, they will buy from you.

This is something that I recently had to remind myself of on another forum. I let someone who posted his product on my thread get the best of me. I said things that I should not have said and the other vendor did the same. We both had no reason to carry on with our heated exchanges because the products did not function the same and were unique in application and design. Turns out that we were not even going after the same type of customer. His product did things that my product could not do and my product did things that his product could not do. I ended up editing and removing my negative comments but the damage had already been done, something for which I sincerely regret.

SUPPORTING VENDORS HAVING TO OWN A KAPPA

A member here on this forum suggested that Supporting Vendors need to be KAPPA Owners. I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Just because a vendor owns a KAPPA vehicle does not make them a more qualified Supporting Vendor. Owning a KAPPA doesn't make a vendor have more ethics, honesty, integrity, reliability, or trustworthiness. KAPPA Ownership also has no impact with the quality and workmanship they put into the products and services they offer.

There are a number of quality parts and services for our cars (including the original build and service from GM) that are manufactured and offered from people who do not own a KAPPA. There are also several creative, hard working, and skilled people who build the Kappa and make the aftermarket parts for our car including tires, rims, lights, hoods, etc. They all offer quality products and workmanship. I think it is safe to say that many have not even sat in a KAPPA, let alone own one. So, again, in my honest opinion this is a non factor and should not be a condition or qualifier set upon a Supporting Vendor.

With that stated, I do think it is helpful to own a Kappa to provide a useful product or service that would interest other KAPPA owners. By last count, I have at least 25 ideas and concepts for the KAPPA because I own one. I come up with something new every time I drive my car. I know that some ideas may interest all KAPPA owners while other ideas may appeal to Solstice owners only. I also know that some concepts would only appeal to me. Which leads me to my next point.

SUPPORTING VENDORS POSTING THREADS & POLLS TO GAGE INTEREST OR TEST MARKET AN IDEA

I still cant believe it was said or suggested... However, someone actually said that Supporting Vendors should not use a forum to inquire, poll, or test market ideas/concepts. With all due respect why not? A vendor would have to be out of their mind not to start threads, respond to posts, and create polls to test market an idea. It is safe to say that 100% of everything you have ever owned or used in life (even outside of the Automotive World) was test marketed, polled, and surveyed prior to it being offered to you as the consumer. Forums are an excellent resource for Research & Development of a product or service. R&D is key to any successful venture.

I make inquiries, ask questions, and post polls on all the forums. To me I would rather offer something new, that has not been done, and is not currently offered. There is a lot of expense and risk in that approach. I know there are others out there like me. That's why we ask the questions and seek the input. This is also why you will see order minimums or group purchase requirements that must be met before something is actually produced. There has to be enough interest to justify the expenses incurred and to pursue the idea or concept further.

You have the right to respond or ignore all threads, posts, and polls especially those from Supporting Vendors. If something a Supporting Vendor posts doesn't interest you, leave a quick post simply stating that you are not interested in the product or service and then move on. If you don't have time to respond, just ignore it altogether. The best way for any thread, post, or poll to die a quick death and go away is for members not to respond to it. Responses just keep topics active and in the fore front of the forum.

This leads me to my final point...

COURTESY WITH RESPONSES TO POLLS, POSTS, AND THREADS

For the most part most of us live in the free world where we are open to speak (or type) what is on our mind. In general, most forums require that you be respectful of others when you interact on their website. Joe and the Global Moderators here do an awesome job with the Kappa Performance forum. They provide us a great environment here that is inviting and welcoming to all members. You can pretty much say what you want as long as it is respectful of others.

What I am about to say applies to all members alike (Members, Supporting Members, and Supporting Vendors).

When you are browsing any forum where you share a common interest, you are bound to find something that will peak or spark your interest. You may actually decide to participate and perhaps respond, which is exactly the point/purpose of any forum. Your participation is always going to be highly encouraged and welcome. You may have something factual or interesting to add that is relevant to the discussion at hand. You may have information or a solution for a problem that someone has and believe me we all want to hear those.  

Remember, there are three communication options available for you to select from that allow you to participate on the forum:

1) Directly respond to a thread with a post. If you have something relevant to add and it is on topic go with Option 1.

2) Start your own thread. If you have something new, that is off topic, or has a completely different take go with Option 2.

3) Send a PRIVATE MESSAGE (PM) (this is one we all overlook and forget) If you have something to say that does not apply to everyone else as a group, want to make a correction, or take personal issue with what is posted on a thread, Option 3 is your best bet.

Option 3 is also the perfect venue to interact directly with the Supporting Vendor. If you have a shipping inquiry, a technical question, or a product/service quality issue, sending a Private Message (PM) is always your best method of communication here.

If something is posted that violates the rules, is obscene, or offensive in nature... Don't respond to it... Continuing a discussion that has taken a turn for the worse is not good for the forum as a whole. Simply report it to Joe or a Global Moderator. Trust me they will investigate and take action as needed.

Whether you are creating a new thread or responding with advice, input, or some helpful information, take a minute to review what you are about to post. Proof read your post and make sure you are responding appropriately using the right option of communication. Think about what you have typed and how it may be received on the other end (especially if your post is passionate or heated).

Sometimes, with threads that invoke a heated or passionate reaction, posting no response is the best course of action. After all, they are looking to draw out a response from someone. As stated before, ignoring it and letting the thread die is the best revenge. That way the offending thread will be buried deep in the bowels of the forum where it belongs

As someone very wise once said, "Think before you hit that submit key"

Joe is hosting an awesome forum here. Be respectful of others and we can keep it that way.          

[G8TR]

 
Glad the words were written, I agree with you totally.

[Cheers]

 

[Sol Asylum]

I too agree with what you have said.

However, I as the person that may have brought up the issue of Kappa ownership would like to make some things clear, here is what I wrote:

By the way how many of our supporting vendors own a Kappa?  Does it make a difference to anyone else besides me?

Ownership was phrased as a question and was just that.  I don't actually know how many vendors own a Kappa, and I certainly didn't say that it was or should be a requirement.  The point I was trying to make was.  If a vendor owns a Kappa then they probably have more then just a financial interest in our cars.  They understand what we feel toward our cars because they are in the same boat.  Now if a vendor has little to no experience with a Kappa other then to try and run a garage business making parts for our cars it makes me wonder about what is going on with that business and just how legit it is especially if that business has no reputation or history of making any other parts what so ever.

You wouldn't go up to anyone that happened to be wearing a white coat to get medical advice would you?  You would want to make sure that you were actually seeing a doctor wouldn't you?  If a business, even a non Kappa related business, doesn't seem on the up and up are you willing to just give them $130 or so for a product that is sight unseen?  If so I might have something you would like to buy.

The second question I asked is also a fair question, or at least I think it is.  So far Brazen is the only one to have voiced an opinion on this matter, and I respect what he had to say.

I'll admit that a new vendor here did not get the warmest of welcomes but he didn't help himself out by making the best first impression that he could have either, and then having his friend make derogatory comments about one of our well known members did little to help him.

I wish him the best of luck, but he is not off to a good start.

[BIO Hazard]

Thanks Sol Asylum for adding your take to this thread.

I think you are on to something here... You analogy needs to be slightly tweaked. You are right I would never go to anyone in a white coat for medical advice or assume they are a competent doctor. I would do some research first and be sure that person is educated, experienced, qualified, and specializes in the area or field of the medical problem I am having. After all, I wouldn't want to go to a foot doctor if I had a problem with my heart.

Back to the point at hand... A person does not have to experience a heart attack to professionally diagnosis and treat the problem. Likewise, one does not have to own a Kappa to make a great part or provide excellent service for one.

I understand your point about someone making parts out of a garage or small shop. This economy will bring out all of the crooks, con artists, scammers, and fly-by-night rip offs who will try to steal a buck anyway they can. I too would be extremely cautious with any new product sight unseen where the fabricator, manufacturer or service provider had no history or established track record.  I have passed on several items both within and outside of the automotive world for that exact same reason. The spidey senses were tingling if you know what I mean. 

With that said though, a number a very successful ventures came from people setting up shop in their basement or making something in their garage. Reminds me of a photo of the shed where Harley Davidson began... Those guys got their start in a shack and the rest is history 

To earn someones trust, build confidence, and establish an excellent reputation takes along time. Ill tell you one good thing for a consumer when it comes to Supporting Vendors on a forum... If they make a crappy part or offer terrible service they will be quickly exposed and unmercifully hammered by members.

In the end, you as the consumer have to feel comfortable when you make any purchase from anyone including a Supporting Vendor.

[lil goat]

First rule of sales, and I have held several very successful sales jobs, never, ever, ever bad mouth your competition. As a Salesman or vendor all you do is destroy your own credibility. I believe that is where some vendors really failed, no matter how good the product I will seek alternatives, I live by this rule in all things not just car parts. As soon as someone begins bad mouthing the competition I walk away.
Second rule of sales, make sure your references are real and deserved, not from your father in law or someone else in a position to gain from your sales, that is just a sham, especially if they attack your potential customers.

I knew this guy once who did tunes for cars, not a big company but very successful, I had bought products from him and been pleased. He had very limited exposure to the Solstice GXP but had done some extensive work on an NA, did the first Super Charger for one. I asked him to tune my car because that was the kind of trust I had in him. He had never seen a GXP, much less driven one. He took a shot, it was rough but an improvement, had an acquaintance go to his shop to get on his dyno, he tuned the car live and his product got better, then he "borrowed" a GXP for a year he liked it so much. I told folks about the tune and a few stepped up to help develop and do testing, Joe and Spikey (Steve)were on that list as well as Chuckdoc and Go-N def , we lived through some trials that were not so great but we hung in, in the middle of it all GM changed up the software, and we still plugged on supporting the little guy. Then they race tune was born and suddenly everyone was talking about this tune. This was Lyndon Wester, the people on this forum, and others will absolutely go to extremes to support a vendor if they act in a professional manner and treat people well.
 I have had the pleasure of owning the first of several products from some of our vendors, so I certainly will support new idea's. first Westers tune, first Dejon intercooler, first Solo cat after it was developed on a customers car, first lot of Solo Street Race exhausts, first JPM shifter batch. I will have one of the first Santana cup holders too. I will bust my hump to support new vendors, but have no patience for arrogant jack a$$'s.

[Critterman]

Depends on what the vendor is making for the car.  Performance parts it is always best to have a car to test on, several in fact.  Lyndon uses the group goat mentioned.  DDM has Randy's car, my car and a few others who will remain nameless unless they want to speak up.  So is it important? 

For a cup holder, windscreen - no it isn't as long as they can test fit it somewhere. 

For suspension, drive train and engine enhancement - you bet your bippy

[lil goat]

Lyndon has his own GXP too, gave the borrowed one back and bought his own, it is his daily driver in warm weather, his is a 2008 with the different software, the rest of us are the 2007 test team, and the auto test team and Chuck is the one man short test team. Dave from Dejon has his own GXP, The Solo guys have Shabby and now Spikey. Most of the real advancements on this car have been made by vendor owners, or companies that have at least ready access to a test mule, or test goat as the case maybe.

[Go-N Def]

You'd never hear Steve (Poorboy) talking bad about other detailing products.  As a matter of fact, on HIS forum, people mention that they use other vendor's products in conjunction with PBW.  No one has anything bad to say about rival products there either.  It's just bad business.

People can use what they want to detail their cars, I and others are free to make suggestions and offer opinions.  Shoot, even as PBW as I am, I don't say anything BAD about the "Z"-nuts in my detailing section on this forum.   



 Me > < Z-nuts

 

[spicy3480]

I love this thread.  This forum has been great to police, as little negativity has popped its ugly head around here.  Joe has really created an informative world of auto enthusiasts that respect each other's valued knowledge.  In turn, a lot of us have developed friendships and connections with the vendors for our Kappa platform.  Attesting to lil goat's accurate description using Lyndon Wester as an example, I have had the pleasure of being on the auto test team for his tunes.  Was it hard at first? Heck yea, but that's what "testing" is all about.  You don't volunteer to be a test goat for something not knowing that there may be issues that need tweaking at first.  I will say, though, that through this testing, I have learned so much about the car.  Also, from the relationship between myself and Jeff from SOLO Performance, I can now say that I happily work for him heading up sales of his Saturn line of exhaust products.  I thought that when I left the Mazda6 forums and club (it was my old car), that I would be sad.  At first I was, but the bonds and people here have quickly made it a thing of the past.  I will have lifelong friends from this, and that is something that should be truly valued as being realy special.  

Our vendors have done a great job of providing us with quality products, and I must say that I don't regret spending the cash at all...even if it did leave a dent in the wallet.  My Kappa is personalized, and that is what makes being a car enthusiast fun.  I enjoying keeping an eye out on this forum as one of your moderators, so keep up the good work and thanks again to everyone, especially joe, for making this a truly special experience and place to be.

[Sly Bob]

  Spiky. I have met some great people after entering the Solstice community and our vendors are beyond reproach. Some vendors are just beginning here and are trying to see what products they should invest their time in. They will have some good ideas and likely will have some ideas that will never make it past the initial design stage.

The established vendors are there and have been there for the long haul because of innovation and great customer service. They have set the bar high for others to aspire to.

Everyone has to start somewhere and many would likely tell you that they started out small working out of their garage. Great vendors grow and continue to innovate. Those that aren't so great will not be around long.

We wish all our vendors well and yeah, thanks Joe for making all this possible.

[Sol Asylum]

I have a question regarding supporting vendor versus classified ad users.  It was stated that the rules were: classified ads were to be used if an individual was selling a particular item however if they were selling multiples of the same item then they should become a supporting vendor.  So the question is where is that stated?  And hypothetically lets say a member was to have a classified ad for something like a drink holder that had a Kappa logo on it and that he had multiples of said unit for sale shouldn't he have to be a supporting vendor to sell these items here?

Not trying to get anyone upset I just wanted to get some clarification on the issue.

[Chemist]

I'll throw my 2¢ in on the Classified Ad aspect of your question. It is my opinion that it is a tacet assumption that a classified ad (in any form) has never been intended to be a general sales medium for multiples of the same item, with the possible exception of puppies and kittens. In other words, I don't think it _is_ written anywhere, just generally understood to be so.

Your results may vary.

[Sol Asylum]

I'm not trying to start a business selling beverage holders but rather I saw something in the classified section that inspired the question.

[DeepBlueGXP]

I believe this is referenced to a cooler that is sold by a "supporting member".  That particular product was made at cost for the community as a one time event and once the quantities are gone, that is it...  LV is out of pocket for the expense to make the coolers and it is a non-profit venture.   Once he sells all the coolers, that is it.  He's not a vendor and will never be.   I requested he become a supporting member to sell the coolers here.

[MomsSol]

I'm not trying to start a business selling beverage holders but rather I saw something in the classified section that inspired the question.

Those were designed by a supporting member, but are now purchased through a supporting vendor (KappaKrap) in order to comply with forum policies.

HTH!

[Chemist]

I'm not trying to start a business selling beverage holders but rather I saw something in the classified section that inspired the question.

Ah, I do understand your question better now, and would agree with your "confusion" over the issue. I did not realize that Hal/SolNut had marketed the bottle retainers via the classified section. Pardon my ignorance and take my earlier post with the requisite grain of salt.



 As Moms pointed out, they did indeed move to Supporting Vendor status.

I hope that this forum can continue to be a place where innovators/creators/vendors can find a home. 

[Sol Asylum]

Thanks for the information.  Like I said I didn't want to get anyone upset, I just wanted to try and understand how things worked.

[LatinVenom]

Folks, as far as I am concern I can send DeepBlueGXP the additional monies like a Vendor pays, however I AM NOT and WILL NEVER be a VENDOR.
I do not want a VENDOR status reflected on my AVATAR.
I am hoping now that spring is here, what is left on my LIVING ROOM inventory will be sold.
I only have 15 RED SKY's left, but about 40 BLACK/11 RED Solstice left.

[Chemist]

Thanks for the information.  Like I said I didn't want to get anyone upset, I just wanted to try and understand how things worked.

I don't think you offered anyone offense with your questions.

I know I learned something from them. 

[SolNut]

Ah, I do understand your question better now, and would agree with your "confusion" over the issue. I did not realize that Hal/SolNut had marketed the bottle retainers via the classified section. Pardon my ignorance and take my earlier post with the requisite grain of salt.

Neither did I (eye).

There was a sequence problem with my 'attack', I checked everything I could on this Forum and B4 I posted I never could find 'BO' at that time as Vendor or Vendor REP?.

Shucks, the efficient bottle holder that Hal is supplying is not in the same league as a $150.00 USD solution to a GM manufacturing problem/design. 

Steve





 

[Filipp]

Personally I am pretty happy that the whole supporting vendor issue happened because prices were then dropped to the level where it should have originally been in the first place and I was able to pickup a backbone for 110$ shipped. I hope there is more competition with other products because it usually ends up helping the consumers which is us.