Topic: Don Sambrook finally silences Jonymac's Catless down pipe

[jonymac]

Tomorrow we will be welcoming a new vendor, Don Sambrook, who started his own company that specializes in sound control for automobiles.  He is well known and often quoted in this niche of the industry, and several of you have referred to him in your posts.

In my quest to tame my catless DP, I came across his website and sent him an email - turns out he lives in Maryland.  I invited him down to the MD Mod Meet and at the meet he will be tearing out the interior of my car and applying his products and putting together a Kappa Sound Deadener Kit that will be specifically designed for our cars.

I will be documenting the process and helping him to make a how to manual for applying his products in our cars.  Check out his website at http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com to learn more about the process.  He has sound recording equipment to give us a before and after analysis of the decibel drop in the cabin as a result of the materials.  I understand this also helps tremendously with audio quality from your sound system.

DeepBlueGXP will send the official announcement of his vendor status once it is established.  If you are at the Meet tomorrow - check us out!  Mine will be the dark gray Sky with the interior on the ground!

JonyMac

[Deep-GXP]

Sounds great.  Sound deadening does wonders.  Cant wait to see more

[GXPinKC]

I am also most intrigued by the process set in motion by this new vendor to the forum.  For a long time, the more expensive vehicles have offered better insulators and sound deadiners in their vehicles.  My Lincoln Navigator is much more quiet then our GXP and also my wife's minivan.  We have been spending the weekend taking care of my granddaughter in Webster Groves, Missouri and the long trip from K.C. to St. Louis is always fun to hear all the notes on the 7 speaker sound system. 

It is always much more difficult to make a convertible roadster less noisy due to the nature of the convertible top.  It will be interested how the company plans to make the cockpit quieter in the decibel department?

[jonymac]

Guys! Just got back from the Mod Meet and Don is the real deal!  He busted his *ss in the hot sun all day learning our car and personally working side by side with me on the install.  Due to time limitations, we got the cockpit completed and just that makes an ENORMOUS difference!  Going to bed now - much more coming about this in the next few days!

BTW - The meet was AWESOME - Joe and the vendors and all of our Kappa brethren were fantastic!

[Dan]

Definitely excited to hear more about this. 

I've had some rougher sounding rides in roadsters--MG comes to mind as making us sound like cotton on the wind while out for a spin.  I'm wondering if the DDM backbone (I have en route in the mail) will make a big difference in terms of "noise over bumps" sounds.  Seems like it could, the car in extreme cold (sorry my northerly friends, I know you fare worse) makes a hella squeak when taking normal road bumps.  I'm talking around 10F and lower.  Sure--not that cold, but definitely not tropical!

There is definitely rattle within the car at a few discernible resonant frequencies, using just the monsoon subwoofer, particularly in the vicinity of the waterfall or directly behind it where the top/latches/cables/etc live. With even a little more punch from an aftermarket setup, I can imagine I'll need to start being concerned with dampening overall.  I'm curious as to what the problem areas are for people, and what treatments are being used to correct/mitigate them.

[Rudeboy]

Thanks to jonymac for inviting me to the meet and to Joe and everyone else for making me feel welcome. We got a very good start on jonymac's car and plan to finish it mid week.

I had planned to do RTA (Real Tine Analysis) sweeps before and after but conditions just weren't conducive to getting that done. Like some of you, I was concerned about how much noise attenuation was possible in an open roadster, particularly one with such an aggressive exhaust system. I still don't know, but jonymac's subjective impressions are positive and I'm happy to go with that

It's certainly not possible to make this car silent - but that was never the goal in the first place. I'll leave it to jonymac to provide the details of his motivation to to start this project if he is so inclined

With those caveats in mind we stuck to basic principles - damp vibrations in the sheet metal to stop noise propagation and the generation of new noise through panel resonance, then line the cockpit with mass loaded vinyl barrier to block as much noise transmission as we could.

I'm very encouraged after this first round that when we've finished the doors and trunk, we will have created an effective shield around the vehicle's passengers. The doors are going to get a very thorough treatment that will not only help with noise intrusion but should also make a dramatic improvement in the quality of the sound being produced by the stock speakers and the eventual replacements that are part of a sound system upgrade that I understand is still in the planning stage.

Once again, I really enjoyed participating in the meet. If I didn't provide clear and complete answers to all of the questions you asked, it was only because I was drifting in and out of lucidity because of the heat - not an intentional slight. Please feel free to ask away, either on this forum or by e-mail or telephone.

[Ben L]

To each his own, but I think maybe I'd rather live with the squeaks, rattles, wind and exhaust noise than add the mass required to damp them.

There are two elements to a power/weight ratio.  The more of the first and the less of the other, the better. 

For what I want out of my car, anyway.  I don't ask much of my sound system, tho. I understand perfectly those who do, and no disrespect intended.

How much overall weight does the full install entail?  That would be a worthwhile number to know.

[jonymac]

Good points Ben - I do not intend on racing this car, but do want as much HP out of it as possible.  I am ecstatic now with my catless DP and my updated Wester's tune!  My wife like to drive the car too and we both are iPod junkies and wanted to be able to hear our tunes nice and crisp - which is hard to do with a catless DP!  Now, even though we are part way through the install - the difference is night and day.

This stuff will add weight to the car - no doubt, but the trade off of not getting a headache in my daily commuter car - 3 hours per day - is well worth it. I know you race yours and so this may not be the way to go with yours, but for those of us who are aging and want a tighter feel - it rocks.

I think the combination of the sound deadening and the DDM backbone and probeam completely change the car - everything is tight as a drum and it feels more like a Mercedes - no squawks or squeeks and it just feels much more tight.

The trunk is basically made out of tupperware and any resonating coming from the tailpipes are like banging on a drum coming from the rear.  More info to follow as we will do the trunk, doors and hood on Wednesday.

[Ben L]

Sounds like a worthy endeavor, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise.  I can see what you mean about the trunk.  When we cut the holes for the shock adjusters, we noted that the trunk floor is fiberglas.  It must act like a giant sounding board.  The rug is pretty thin.  The drum analogy is apt.   

I wouldn't mind a quieter car, as mine is daily driven, too (but not the distance of your commute!).  But our cars are pretty darn heavy as it is, and I was wondering about the weight cost. 

In particular, I am curious if Don's stuff is lighter than the bituminized aluminum sheeting products you see out there, like Fatmat?

[Sly Bob]

What DOES the full install weigh?

[jonymac]

Sly Bob - we will know on Wednesday - we still have to do the trunk, doors and hood...

[DeepBlueGXP]

Jonymac, paypal the vendor fees to KappaPerformance @ yahoo.com.   Remove the spaces when sending.

[Rudeboy]

How much overall weight does the full install entail?  That would be a worthwhile number to know.

It will be less than 75 lbs. The heaviest element is the mass loaded vinyl and it would have been smart of us to save the scraps to see how much less than the starting weight we ended up with. I would guess the installed weight will be 60-65 lbs.

It would be possible to reduce panel resonance with just 5 or 6 lbs of added weight using CLD Tiles alone, but the final result would be very different. Unfortunately, you need mass to block sound. You can minimize the added weight by only using what you need, but you can't get away from that fundamental truth.

[jonymac]

OK guys - I took today off and spent the WHOLE DAY working with Don in my garage finishing up the sound deadening system for the Kappa platform.  This man got up at 4 in the morning to drive from 15 miles north of Baltimore to my place 45 minutes south of Washington to finish the project.  He is a trooper and a man among men folks.

In a nutshell, once again I have a new car.  At the Md Mod Meet we completed the cockpit install.  Today we did the doors, trunk and hood.  Don and I took it for a spin afterward and the difference is breathtaking.  He knows his sh*t!  I am running a catless exhaust and it is now quieter than the stock cat from inside the cockpit.  It received 2 thumbs up from my wife - who is VERY picky about loud engine noise and flashy cars (and the reason I undertook this project).

Don told me after the mod meet (when we only had the cockpit done) that the noise would stop coming from the floorboards and would seem to move to behind my head - he was spot on.  The trunk sounded like a drum - now the exhaust note sounds like it is coming low - from over a cliff behind me as it should.  I can actually hear the waste gate again - which I could not hear at all once I put the catless DP on.  No more rattles, creaks or anything.  It feels like driving a top end Mercedes.

Music - incredible - it really is like I have a hole new stereo system!  I only have to use half the volume I used to have to use.  Don and I carried on a normal conversation with the top down doing 65-70 MPH without having to raise our voices AT ALL!!  Just unbelievable.

Sorry to gush, but I can't say enough about how happy I am with how this project turned out.  If anyone is local and wants to ride with me to see what I mean, feel free to PM me.  Don and I will be working up an exhaustive How To document and he will be putting together the pricing for the kit over the next few days.

I have to say, the install is very involved - it obviously requires removing your interior (not the dash), trunk carpet, door panels, and hood liner.  This would be a 3 day mod without the expertise of Don - with him it took 2 days, but he had never done a Kappa, nor a convertible until now - so there was PLENTY of learning going on - I had never removed the interior before either!

I sure know a LOT more about my car now though and am WELL prepared for stereo mods and other things as a result.

So hang tight - pics, instructions and a Sound Deadener Kappa Kit coming soon!!

(Oh, and don't be put off by Don's screen name - he is the nicest and wittiest guy you could ever want to meet!)

JonyMac

[LiquidPT]

Once I get my car, I'm gonna have to hit him up for a Coupe kit. I have an advantage though. I've done the interior of my PT, so I have an idea what I'm in for...

[Dan]

I'd be interested in the Shake Rattle and Roll specs/pricing versus a complete Tame the Beast treatment.  I don't want to eliminate anything in terms of exhaust etc., but the glaring resonances that occur below 100Hz (I sadly haven't sat down and tried to locate it) I view as non-productive sounds I could stand to bid farewell to.  If that makes any sense, lol.

In my NA and the GXP, the symptoms seem to be the same.  It's not a drone or a roar that I care much about. It's the buzz resulting from the not-all-that powerful sub, and also some random rattle (that I think the Backbone is going to help--I shall see) that I don't much care for.  It's definitely somewhat improved with the GXP, because now I sometimes turn off/down the stereo just to listen to the  car...heh

[jonymac]

i like the exhaust note too - it doesn't get rid of it, it tones down all the racket that the exhaust resonating and vibrating wreaks havoc on the body panels causing the buzzing and drone.  I too sometimes turn off the radio to hear the car sing, but with my catless DP it was overwhelming!

The stock sound system is actually pretty awesome and I never knew that because the sub and speakers made all the body panels rattle and distorted the sound.  Not any more!

If you want a lite version of what I did, I would do the cockpit - the only thing is, you will stop hearing the resonating and rattling there and hear it somewhere else (trunk and doors).  When you do all the panels it goes away completely.

This is one of those mods where you don't know what you are missing until you do it - once done, your car feels like a Lexus in terms of quality - even the satisfying thunk when the doors close now is MUCH different. 

If you have questions, feel free to send me a PM and I'll send you my phone number.

JonyMac

[Go-N Def]

I cant believe no one has hit you with one of these yet:

 

[kennysabarese]

does he have a more accurate number of how much weight this will add?

[Rudeboy]

does he have a more accurate number of how much weight this will add?

We're in the 65-70 lb. range.

[Rudeboy]

I'd be interested in the Shake Rattle and Roll specs/pricing versus a complete Tame the Beast treatment.  I don't want to eliminate anything in terms of exhaust etc., but the glaring resonances that occur below 100Hz (I sadly haven't sat down and tried to locate it) I view as non-productive sounds I could stand to bid farewell to.  If that makes any sense, lol.

In my NA and the GXP, the symptoms seem to be the same.  It's not a drone or a roar that I care much about. It's the buzz resulting from the not-all-that powerful sub, and also some random rattle (that I think the Backbone is going to help--I shall see) that I don't much care for.  It's definitely somewhat improved with the GXP, because now I sometimes turn off/down the stereo just to listen to the  car...heh

You'd be an ideal candidate for just using CLD Tiles to control panel resonance. Engine, exhaust and tire contact with the road all generate vibrations that cause the car's panels to resonate and most of them do so int the range around 100 Hz. Treating the panels with vibration damper drastically reduces the noise you are hearing.

When John and I test drove his car after we were done, he described his impression of the car feeling more solid. That's what he was talking about. The vehicle's panels are the closest thing to you and when they are "singing" that's what you are going to hear.

By removing the very thin factory installed damping pads (peel off very easily) and replacing them and adding more, the panels are now decidedly dead. The doors close with an authoritative sound and the tinniness is gone.

One issue to consider is the factory vibration damper on the floor - it's not great, but it looked like it would be a  to get up. Since we were going to line the floor with foam and MLV anyway, it wasn't critical for our application. I added a few tiles to bare spots, but for a vibration damper only install it might be worth trying to get it up. Applying damper on top of damper doesn't do much.

I'll be reviewing what we used in the next few days and will be able to give a better idea of what is required then. This is the easiest type of deadening project and won't eliminate any of the fundamental car sounds.

[DeepBlueGXP]

Are you going to open Jonymac's car again and make templates for purchase or will we have to figure it out and cut up a sheet.

[Rudeboy]

Are you going to open Jonymac's car again and make templates for purchase or will we have to figure it out and cut up a sheet.

There will be a photo guide. Pre-cutting the materials would raise the price by a factor of 3 and it just isn't that hard. CLD Tile location is simple and they go on in one piece for the most part. The foam and vinyl get laid in place and cut to shape. The cutting doesn't have to be perfect or pretty since none of it is visible once the interior is put back in. Ninety percent of the effort is in disassembling and assembling the car. Figuring out what goes where takes some time, but that will all be done for you.

[Dan]

You'd be an ideal candidate for just using CLD Tiles to control panel resonance. Engine, exhaust and tire contact with the road all generate vibrations that cause the car's panels to resonate and most of them do so int the range around 100 Hz. Treating the panels with vibration damper drastically reduces the noise you are hearing.

Yes, I think that's right up my alley. 

Funny--both of you mentioned the door slam.  I guess I've noticed that, too.  The door makes its' hollow closing sound and I think, hmm...that's not how I picture that sounding!

[lil goat]

Jmac I hope you took good notes, cause you know where I am coming to get help with mine. This time the Hooter's is on me. The boy really needs some work on his GTO, and could most likely turn Don on to a whole new bunch of customers. He is very active in the Capitol GTO club. I did line the doors with dampener already, but not the panels.