Author Topic: GM engineer questions backbone (Read 58770 times)

GXPinKC · « **Reply #125 on:** July 06, 2009, 10:57:51 AM »

Quote from: lil goat on July 06, 2009, 08:44:39 AM

As I said at the No Mod meet there was only one thing he said that mattered, he took out his check book! No matter what he said he did not let Dave remove the "backbone" even though changes were only slight

Keep the faith baby!

Quote from: Ben L on July 06, 2009, 10:24:42 AM

That act of faith speaks a lot louder than the engineer-speak. . . .

Quote from: smartin on July 06, 2009, 10:28:50 AM

WE WON!

You know what guys, our rump checks may not be scientific, but my "seat of the pants discovery drawers" do mean something to me and Carol and that is the fact that adding the 3/8ths Race Backbone and ProBeam by Dave and DDMWorks has made a difference in a positive way in the handling and performance of Miss Red Eagle. A hand goes out to all who participated in this thread. We are all the better for it! Again, thanks to our good friend, Steve Padilla for taking the time to make good on his promise to audition a vehicle with the products manufactured by DDMWorks!

Also, our thanks go out to Dave, of DDMWorks for stepping up to the plate to be present for the drive with Steve.
GXPinKC
Ron

Critterman · « **Reply #126 on:** July 06, 2009, 12:42:25 PM »

Ond does not question Dr. Dave's work without being willing to back it up

All Hail Dr. Love

G8TR · « **Reply #127 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:59:40 PM »

I've always been happy with Dr. Love's work, haven't found anyone that isn't. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

Treeman · « **Reply #128 on:** July 15, 2009, 08:36:03 AM »

Ordered my backbone last night - my first mod (except disabling DRLs)!

Probeam will have to come another month - the house and my teenage daughter are creating a giant sucking sound on the wallet at the moment...

WindRestrictor · « **Reply #129 on:** July 15, 2009, 04:47:29 PM »

We got them installed in Denver. GREAT products!!!!!!!!

Treeman · « **Reply #130 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:16:41 PM »

OK dudes, I know this may be old stuff for many of you but I installed my backbone today (race) and just came back from one of my favorite runs through the woods. 2nd and 3rd gear turns, camber changes, hoop-de-doos - fun and challenging drive. U-238 - this is a relatively inexpensive must for you for the autocrossing. I admit I was a skeptic who became convinced by folk's stories on this but it really does make a big difference. One thing that others haven't mentioned is road feel - something I have been a bit disappointed in (my Altima has better road feel). This has improved, especially at the rear. But it is all as billed. Going over bumps on one side the car feels like solid mass - I thought it was before but it really does now. It really does corner flatter - instead of tire squeal from one side I hear it from both. Turn in is quicker and I feel more like I'm carving the slopes than sliding over them. Control is better - can really steer with the throttle with more confidence. As for the stories of taking curves a gear faster - I really did without realizing it. Went to upshift and realized that I was a gear higher than I usually was and felt comfortable doing it. This is without the probeam - will have to get that when I refill the money tank. Thanks all for putting up with my persistent questions on this one - I kept wondering if the improvements were only for those with better tires or had tunes and more power. Nope, I'm stock on tires and tune - as Goat put it to me, did not realize how much I was compensating for these issues.

Ben L · « **Reply #131 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:52:27 PM »

Told ya! Now get a Pro Beam . . .

GXPinKC · « **Reply #132 on:** July 30, 2009, 08:59:41 PM »

Yes Treeman, Ben L is 100% correct, get the ProBeam from Dave and DDMWorks. Talk about improvement. By going forward with the Backbone first, you have found out what improvements it has made! Now, finish the deal with the ProBeam and after it's install, tell us what you have found. I am sure you have read what others have said so I will say nothing more. When you can afford to go forward, you will not be sorry. I have the Race 3/8Th's Backbone which weighs 9 and 1/2 lbs and the ProBeam that weighs 9 lbs (by the way the Backbone GM provided weighs 5 lbs) and I am happy as a cat in heat at a dog Meet! I got to drive "Miss Red Eagle" home from the Nationals and man, all I can say is, with the additions from DDMWorks and the new Tune, it was a SWEET ride home.

GXPinKC · « **Reply #133 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:40:03 AM »

lil goat, Jim, posted this thread way back on June 10Th, 2009 and it was early, or at least so for me, uh, 08:55:17AM. The thread has relevance today and the last post to the thread was the one above, post #132. I am bringing this old thread back for new members that may not have seen it and who may be contemplating purchase of the DDM "Race", "Street" or "Extreme" Backbone along with the DDM Red or Black Cross Bay Brace!

Believe me, if you have not added them, do it!!!

elff · « **Reply #134 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:30:06 PM »

They since added the Extreme Backbone to their lineup which I have in my car.

GXPinKC · « **Reply #135 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:39:07 PM »

Quote from: lil goat on June 11, 2009, 06:48:09 AM

For the Street/Race/Extreme decision process. The difference between the Street and Race is huge compared to the difference between the Race and the Extreme and people are upgrading to the Extreme right and left. The Race has 1/3 the flex of the Street, that is 4mm VS. 14mm The Extreme has 2mm VS. 4mm. Even I doubt you would notice the 2mm difference but if I didn't have a backbone, I would still get the Extreme. The only reason I didn't upgrade to the Extreme is they didn't make it in PINK!

I just had a thought, don't laugh it happens, if there were any disadvantages to the car being stiffer they would appear in the Coupe, if you think a backbone will stiffen a car try a roof!

The above post by lil goat says it all! Just order from DDMWorks, you will not be sorry, no the smile on your face will tell the tale, just like the permanent one on the Joker in the movie "Batman"!

elff · « **Reply #136 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:39:55 PM »

and fun will be had by all.

snaponbob · « **Reply #137 on:** June 06, 2011, 03:25:17 PM »

And the stiffer the spring/shock package, the more apparent the improvement will be. Even the coupe will benefit as it is NOT a true coupe, and flexes as well. If it were class legal for me, I would absolutely have one.

GXPinKC · « **Reply #138 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:08:42 PM »

Quote from: jonymac on June 10, 2009, 12:03:36 PM

Just to add to the pile - as Goat pointed out, the keys here seem to be:

1. GM tested with 1/8 inch steel and not 3/8 or greater aluminum
2. We don't know if the car already had the Z0K bar

I installed the 3/8 race backbone and the before and after was OBVIOUS - not only to me, but to a passenger who didn't know I did the swap (and who isn't the remotest interested in my mod madness). I say this even though I sheared two of my bolt heads off doing the install! The way the car held together over bumps and through curves was night and day. Again spirited driving or even going over railroad tracks felt different.

I then installed the probeam and felt what I would gauge was 25% more change in the handling - not as much as I had been expecting, but chalked it up to the fact that I already did the backbone.

I will concede that as humans, there probably is SOME placebo effect involved - but that can't be removed - it comes with committing resources and energy to a project. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the backbone has changed the nature of the handling of my car. I am now more motivated to tap out those two bolts I hosed!

BTW- I would love to participate in the blind ride project if possible!

JonyMac

Thanks JonyMac for your post #17 on this thread for those who do not intend to go back to the firsts posts in this thread. I believe however that it would be worth your time to do so especially if you are in the decision making part of your thinking. This is a long thread for sure but a lot of goodies hang early on in the thread. It would be worth your time to go back into the thread. Lot of meat here!!! Since our install at the Denver Nationals, the Eagle has been transformed and you can really feel the difference. If you have not bitten yet, bite!!! You will not be disappointed!!!

ophidia31 · « **Reply #139 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:34:00 PM »

Ive done my best to read through these posts (didnt get to the link ddm posted on the other forum yet) but havent seen any type of legit slalom testing done. Yes, seat of the pants and back road jaunts do help, but dont give hard evidence. Im not skeptical of any gains given as I know in my gut there would be improvemtns with each addition. But has any one done before and after tests using the backbone, probeam and then both together against the stock setup on slalom runs? Id be curious to see if and how big of an mph improvement youd get. Hell, can even toss the front brace in the mix and do seperate runs with that brace as well. If I had the cash at the moment to get all three braces from them, Id do some testing myself and post the results but kind of shortfunded at the moment.

old goat · « **Reply #140 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »

You will notice the most change from the backbone, not a lot of tests done as they are illgal for SCCA racing at the lower levels. DDM did not invent the concept it is a known GM issue the idea came from a similar product made for the Corvette. The stock piece is flexible, you can bend it with your hands, the DDM piece is not, that was enough for me to see and order GXP backbone part No.1

snaponbob · « **Reply #141 on:** June 06, 2011, 05:28:52 PM »

Quote from: ophidia31 on June 06, 2011, 04:34:00 PM

Ive done my best to read through these posts (didnt get to the link ddm posted on the other forum yet) but havent seen any type of legit slalom testing done. Yes, seat of the pants and back road jaunts do help, but dont give hard evidence. Im not skeptical of any gains given as I know in my gut there would be improvemtns with each addition. But has any one done before and after tests using the backbone, probeam and then both together against the stock setup on slalom runs? Id be curious to see if and how big of an mph improvement youd get. Hell, can even toss the front brace in the mix and do seperate runs with that brace as well. If I had the cash at the moment to get all three braces from them, Id do some testing myself and post the results but kind of shortfunded at the moment.

Having autocrossed for three decades, I can assure you that a super consistent driver would have to do quantitative testing that would show anything. Kappas have cowl shake. Stiffen the suspension enough, and it becomes VERY apparent. (My windshield snapped at an event!!) If the body is flexing, the car simply can not perform at its best. Stiffen the body, and the benefits are endless. I have the DDM ProBeam -- it felt better immediately and the predictability increased. I have the DDM Tower Brace -- much more subtle change, but it is there. As mentioned, Z06 Corvettes have heavy tunnel plates while standard Vettes have tunnel covers like ours - thin and flexy. Z06s flex less.

BackBones function as claimed.

MomsSol · « **Reply #142 on:** June 06, 2011, 07:28:01 PM »

I know the kappa suspension engineer personally and spoke with early on when DDM came out w the backbone and the probeam...GM tested several ideas to stiffen the car for racing specifically ...his statement to me was "you can't go wrong with either or both", they do what they are intend to do.

GXPinKC · « **Reply #143 on:** June 06, 2011, 09:30:24 PM »

Quote from: TerryT on June 13, 2009, 01:59:39 AM

My two cents on the DDM mods.

Bought a new 09 GXP (Auto) in October of 08. Loved it then, love it now. From the beginning it was almost impossible to keep the rear end from breaking loose when I punched it at 20 - 40 mph. Entering freeway ramps, jacking with Porsches, irritating Lambos, when I got on it hard, the rear end broke loose. Ran consistently at about 19PSI top boost under hard acceleration. (DFW Texas area) Added the Backbone and the Probeam AND the GMPP tune. Now running consistently at about 21 PSI top boost and the vast majority of the problems with loss of traction have disappeared. I am driving a vehicle that has MORE power and BETTER handling and Traction. This is not placebo effect or some kind of mind trick. When I punch it hard it stays glued to the road, unlike before.

Cornering is also vastly improved. Curves that were difficult to take at 40 can now be handled at 50+. (Factory tires, although I hope to be changing that in the near future)

In short, I can't speak to the Scientific basis for the DDM products' worth. (Calculus was my downfall as a potential engineer) All I can say is that for me, they work and work well.

I recommend them to any Solstice owner that wants to improve the handling of his or her car.

Thanks TerryT for this post which is reply# 91 posted June 13, 2009. Decided to bring it to the attention of others reviewing this thread if in fact you may have missed it. Carry on...

TerryT · « **Reply #144 on:** June 06, 2011, 10:50:50 PM »

Surfing around and ran across the updated conversation. As an ancient band once said, "The Song Remains the Same". Still love the car, still happy with the mods. Have added a Z0K rear sway bar (another addition well worth the time and money) and Vredestein tires for some serious grip.

Have wrung it out on some of the most demanding roads in the Southwest; The Gila Monster in New Mexico, The Devil's Backbone in Arizona, The Three Sisters in south Texas and a lot of other roads that are nameless but a tremendous amount of fun.

The mods from DDM should be at the top of the list for any Solstice owner that wants to improve the overall handling and performance of their car.

Hope we see a bunch of y'all in Austin in a couple of weeks!

Safe Travels

1LILNDN · « **Reply #145 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:47:07 PM »

I know after I installed it I backed the left rear wheel on a 12 inch ramp and got out of the car the whole rear end was in the Air 12 inches. now have LVCB,pro beam and DDM tower cross brace. handles curves and rampsof any style no lean or sway.

elff · « **Reply #146 on:** June 07, 2011, 11:06:18 AM »

You have LV's and DDMs Brace in your engine bay?

kennysabarese · « **Reply #147 on:** June 07, 2011, 11:40:46 AM »

There's definitely something going on in the back of the Hot Rod solstice that looks like the probeam, but upside down. Doesn't look like they have a backbone because of the exhaust, but there may be something under those pipes.

This vehicle was built by GM, so you know whatever they did is legit. They even put a brace in the passenger's footwell to help stop flex.

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ophidia31 · « **Reply #148 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:48:28 PM »

Looks like a lower tie bar that youd see on alot of imports. I think the new werks brace accomplishes something like that brace they have there only with some extra mount points thrown in. The only thing I dont like about that conversion is they got rid of all bracing in the tunnel of the car to fit the exhaust. What is this footwell brace you speak of?

Sol Asylum · « **Reply #149 on:** June 07, 2011, 01:20:45 PM »

I think he means the black hoses that are on the passenger side just behind the lower A arm.

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Author Topic: GM engineer questions backbone (Read 58770 times)

Ben L