Author Topic: GM engineer questions backbone  (Read 58725 times)

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Offline Treeman

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2009, 08:55:12 PM »
Hey, its all good.  You don't have to autocross or drive a Cobra, or heavily mod your Kappa to have fun or express yourself here.

But I'm going to share the opinions and experiences of someone who does all three of those things, ready or not.  Putting aside the whole "manhood" thing, I think the point is that a hopped up Kappa driven in an autocross/road race environment (where you are supposed be near 10/10ths to be fast) probably subjects the car to more extreme, at the limit, conditions than even "hard" street driving, so its sort of like a good test lab for chassis and suspension.  Plus, any motorsports racer is a competitive, insecure, a-hole by definition.  So if I come off as a little opinionated about what I observe and feel from my mods, please forgive me.

PS -- You really should try autocrossing and driving a Cobra.  I am pretty sure you would have to be dead not to have a blast doing both.

Agree on all points! Love to be a racer.  Love to be driving open wheel cars.  Life intervenes.  So, I have the fun I have.
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2009, 10:44:40 PM »
I have had the Good Year F1 GS-D3's from almost day one on my GXP. I can tell you that after installing both the Pro Beam and BackBone the car has improve a lot more. I definitely feel the ProBeam made most of the improvement in handling and the BackBone makes the car feel more rigid\solid.
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Offline diamoney

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2009, 12:26:32 PM »
See, that's the rare 1% occasion where one corner of the vehicle met with an extreme elevation change and the stiffer tunnel cover helped you out. Thus, as a sort of insurance mod it is definitely worthwhile; but it will not turn a Kappa into a Mazzerati. Just sayin. Remember in the olden days there were owners who pulled that cover plate and the trans cover in their efforts to lighten the car. There were no reported ill effects. Pulled the driveshaft cover and drove it a couple of days and it felt basically the same. Got another OEM plate off the web from a Solstice and bolted the two of them together back up onto the tunnel and still no big change in normal driving. That said, for those who really want the assurance of a sturdier lower center, the DDM piece is surely a good thing to have.

As Critter mentioned, stock is different than enhanced.  I put on a "bone" in Dallas in April, and driving home to E. TN caused me to wonder if there were any real benefits.   I didn't FEEL any.   Then I went to work on the winding, up and down roadways that I have to travel daily and discovered that I no longer have to downshift for a number of curves that previously sent me into the other lane- and this is on tread with only 3mm depth left!

It works for me.  Period.  Stop.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 12:53:04 PM by diamoney »
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Offline diamoney

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2009, 12:59:41 PM »
I am curious though about the thoughts of doing the DDM route versus Z0K.  I get the picture that DDM is the cheaper, easier mod.  But Flash's Owner makes a big point about the attachment points on the Z0K rear crossmember piece versus the ProBeam.  What do folks think?



The way I read it, the engineer was favorably comparing the ZOK with the ProBeam as opposed to the other option that went unnamed to prevent hurt feelings.  As I recall, as Dave was developing the ProBeam, he held discussions with GM engineering....
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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2009, 01:02:58 PM »
After my very recent upgrade to the Z0K sway bar I am wondering if the backbone is not doing double duty and helping the light weight stock sway bar out, the new bar amplifies what the backbone does, and takes out even more flex.

Offline GXPinKC

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2009, 10:28:39 PM »
I agree lil goat.  I had the 3/8" Race Backbone and and Pro Beam added to "Miss Red Eagle" at the National Meet in Denver by Dave at DDMWorks and also had a Tune from Martin who owns GM Roadster.  After taking my baby on the Peak to Peak run that was led by Aspen Rose, I discovered what I had been missing by not getting a Performance Tune.  All told, I would recommend a performance tune from a good Tunner and the above mentioned additions.
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Offline BIO Hazard

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2009, 12:26:14 AM »
Uhhh ohhhhh..... Someone said GM Roadster and "Good Tune"... I am going to go hide now.  
Tim aka BIO Hazard
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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2009, 07:35:27 AM »
I agree lil goat.  I had the 3/8" Race Backbone and and Pro Beam added to "Miss Red Eagle" at the National Meet in Denver by Dave at DDMWorks and also had a Tune from Martin who owns GM Roadster.  After taking my baby on the Peak to Peak run that was led by Aspen Rose, I discovered what I had been missing by not getting a Performance Tune.  All told, I would recommend a performance tune from a good Tunner and the above mentioned additions.

Please do not mention that con artist GM Roadster in this thread, it is irrelevant and the fact that you bought a tune from him, all I can say is I am sorry.

Just to post an update to the original thread, I know of a very large company that has the test equipment to do both computer and in car testing of there own version of the backbone. They found that it does indeed work, both on the computer sims and in the real world.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 08:44:35 AM by lil goat »

Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2009, 08:19:19 AM »
I agree lil goat.  I had the 3/8" Race Backbone and and Pro Beam added to "Miss Red Eagle" at the National Meet in Denver by Dave at DDMWorks and also had a Tune from Martin who owns GM Roadster.  After taking my baby on the Peak to Peak run that was led by Aspen Rose, I discovered what I had been missing by not getting a Performance Tune.  All told, I would recommend a performance tune from a good Tunner and the above mentioned additions.
Ron, I know it was a spur of the moment tune purchase, I'm surprised you bought it from "them" Sure more power feels great, but is it done right and good for your car?  Do you have knock?  Sometimes not detectable unless you use HPTuners to scan. 

Uhhh ohhhhh..... Someone said GM Roadster and "Good Tune"... I am going to go hide now. 
Actually he recommended a good tuner (only a few I know of) plus the DDM additions.  He didn't mention that "they" were a good tuner.

Please do not mention that con artist GM Roadster in this thread, it is irrelevant and the fact that you bought a tune from him, all I can say is I am sorry. Please update your post and remove the comments about GM Roadster.
I know you're peo'd about this but we all know where the "real" tunes come from.

Offline Critterman

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2009, 10:44:41 AM »
Many are temped by the sins of flesh, but only a few devote followers can witstand the sin of temptation.

Remember Adam took a bite of the apple because of Eve.

so anyway back to the backbone and probeam, have both, love them to pieces, just wish I could be as fast as Joe with his Wester's tune.
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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2009, 07:24:59 AM »
I will say this in defense of Ron, Martin is a hell of a salesman, no way he would he would still be in business if he couldn't talk the panties off a Nun. Lyndon Wester is an awful salesman, but a fantastic and honest guy and a helluva tuner.

For the record the Sears Sky that Critter, Elff and I saw kick some serious butt in Drift. Has ASD's own version of a "backbone" I doubt they would have bothered if it didn't work, Rhys Millen has his version on the Red Bull Solstice too. Not sure about the Gardella Solstice yet. I will ask Ryan in Vegas.

Offline Critterman

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2009, 07:26:27 AM »
Maybe Ryan would like a Pink Extreme version?  You could take it to him in Vegas
GONE: (but not forgotten) 2006 Cool named IXABEL (BISH-AH-BEL) Mayan for "Good Roads"
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lil goat

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2009, 07:30:16 AM »
I am thinking he most likey has one from ASD, as he is a member of Drift Alliance and has Wilwood brakes just like the Sky, but maybe he could have it redone in pink for "Save the Ta-Ta's"

Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2009, 01:16:36 AM »
Would you be able to get that version at Hoot..er I mean NAPA?
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Offline jonymac

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2009, 10:26:27 AM »
Napa only sells bright orange ones with big owl eyes on them.
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Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2009, 11:54:34 AM »
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Offline Chemist

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2009, 01:25:16 PM »
Thanks, Dave. I missed that over on the BB.

Good to know what I was feeling in the corners was real. :D :lol:
I'd rather be driving! :D

Offline Critterman

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2009, 05:47:38 PM »
It is great to know non-engineers can be right sometimes :)
GONE: (but not forgotten) 2006 Cool named IXABEL (BISH-AH-BEL) Mayan for "Good Roads"
DDM StageIII intercooled Supercharger, Wisco ceramic coated pistons, Carrillo rods, superTech valves and Springs, Ported and polished head, Exedy Stage II Clutch,
big brake kit, slotted/drilled Rotors w/Porterfield pads & blue juice, Backbone, Probeam, Cross Strut Brace Underhood, trunk, & door Lights, ZOK suspension
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2009, 02:35:10 AM »
So does this mean it is actually a brace and not just a dust cover? :poke: :banghead:
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lil goat

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2009, 09:29:53 PM »
I am so glad that is over, I am very tired of being accused of drinking Kool-Aid I drink Ice Tea, sweet please! The engineers of 3 different winning racing teams can't all be wrong, and if you want you car adjusted who better than a Caropractor like Dr. Love (some of you will get that joke)

Offline sunnygator

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2009, 09:33:15 PM »
It is great to know non-engineers can be right sometimes :)

Hey, as an engineer, we know we're always off.....but close enough for all practical purposes....
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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #121 on: July 06, 2009, 07:40:22 AM »
I was dazzled by the engineer-speak and with him until I hit this:

"Stock configuration is reasonably neutral if corner entry is smooth and power application is light to neutral approaching apex, light throttle application and smooth corner exit - results in mild tire squeal from the front and rear at similar levels."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?   :huh:

Respectfully, and in the nicest way possible, I disagree with this statement.

My car understeered like a pig on roller skates in "stock configuration."  Its taken a Pro Beam, rear-biased spring rates, and adjustable coilovers cranked way stiff in the rear to reduce that condition to remotely acceptable levels.

Even with "smooth corner entry" and "light to neutral throttle application approaching the apex," she just would not turn, and kept going straight.  You hear the tires scrubbing and squealing all right, but all from the fronts protesting as the car pushed through the turn.

Allowing that I may not be the greatest driver, I can tell you that other much better local autoxers who drove my car agreed with this assessment.

Anyway, I'm glad he noticed a difference with the Backbone.  That lays to rest part of the Great Debate.

But I also wonder whether a member of the Kappa suspension design team, with quite understandable and mostly justified pride in his work, is a totally dispassionate and disinterested observer.

Comments like that on the car's "neutrality" out of the box make this uninformed, non-engineer, butt-dyno oriented, country boy driver wonder.   :huh:

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2009, 08:44:39 AM »
As I said at the No Mod meet there was only one thing he said that mattered, he took out his check book! No matter what he said he did not let Dave remove the "backbone" even though changes were only slight  :rofl:

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2009, 10:24:42 AM »
 :agree:

That act of faith speaks a lot louder than the engineer-speak. . . .

Offline smartin

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Re: GM engineer questions backbone
« Reply #124 on: July 06, 2009, 10:28:50 AM »
WE WON! :yay: