Topic: I am going 27lbs on Friday with Trifecta Tune

[Imaj]

I am the guinea pig for this tune. Vince has only logged 7000 miles with it on his HHR. (But says it has been flawless!)  On Friday I am hooking up with two tuners in the metroplex. We are going to dyno the 27lbs boost tune to dial it in. (They think by the third pull it should be good to go.) I have no idea what 27lbs of boost will feel like. I will video tape everything so y'all can see first hand what the car is doing.

[DirtyMike]

nice, what performance mods do you have?

[LiquidPT]

Cool. Ya, I just don't have the budget to do it now. I'd love to get together with Vince sometime and get his input/take on power upgrades.

[Kelu]

Great move Imaj, looking forward to this.
What kind of dyno are you going? Planing to do a before/after dyno run?

[lil goat]

Just curious if you have an external boost gauge? My factory gauge won't show past 23 on my 2007, but I have read it will show 25 on some.

I would like to see a dyno sheet just for the sake of the torque curve, should be interesting if it hits 27 and holds should be making a nice flat curve.

[Uranium-238]

IMO, anyone who gets a tune shoule look at getting a real boost gauge if they're interested in boost numbers. The stock "gauge" is very unresponsive. It would show that the car was holding 15psi, when my Autometer analog gauge showed it bouncing between 14 and 16 psi.

[snaponbob]

Spoke with Vince for about 30 minutes this afternoon. He is at the VERY early stages of playing with the LNF and has NOT dyno'ed a Kappa yet. Interesting. His high boost Cobalt/HHR tune is killing clutches, but that may be an issue with their clutches. He has a very interesting protocol for "remote" tuning that does NOT involve a dyno shop.

[kennysabarese]

I am definitely interested.

[elff]

This has my interest peaked as well.

[snaponbob]

This has my interest peaked as well.

Vince said he has a 29psi tune as well. Lyndon's response was a chuckle followed by "how may turbos with THAT kill?". For now Lyndon has sent me Fred 2.0 to see if my car can maintain 23psi from 3000 to 4000 rpm before it falls off.

[lil goat]

Lyndon told me he hit 30 psi with the stock turbo long long ago, just never could get it to not throw a CEL after 3 seconds. I can hold 22 between 3000 and 4000 with the latest tune.

I have never spoken with Vince, just read his website. Sounds like he uses a similar tool to what GMR uses, I am sure Vince came up with it first but seems very similar. I didn't know he could do actual tuning without a dyno, no reason he couldn't if he is doing data scans.

[Imaj]

Yeah, he normally does tuning without a dyno. In my case he wants to make sure that everything will be set properly by doing a dyno tune. (First Solstice ya know!)

Humm...if my turbo were to die. (Which I doubt will happen.) That is not so bad...time to get with Dejon for a bigger turbo.

Hey Bob...is the glass half full or half empty for you?

[elff]

Imaj
will you be getting the tune that can be turned back to stock?

[Imaj]

Nope. Going to put it on my other ecu.

[snaponbob]

Hey Bob...is the glass half full or half empty for you?

???????????????

[kwtoxman]

I'll be the first to guess 300 rwhp if it is a dynojet reading similar to other high #'s posted on the forums.

[Arabas]

Imaj i am really looking forward to your car's results and your ecperience. it will be very interesting

[wegman]

i just want a gt28 and 27psi!! rock on hope all goes well!!

[Imaj]

Hi all...The time is ticking. I am hoping for 330whp. I might be optimistic...but, I can hope. Here is my most resent dynojet results...



Keep in mind this is with a Westers race tune. Solo High Flow Cat, Solo RCD exhaust, K&N Filter, Dejon intercooler and Dejon intercooler pipes/elbow.

[kwtoxman]

Great comparison info Imaj with the dyno! I take it you don't have the GM tune? I do and am interested in how that goes. Vince says he can do great things with it too.

It will be great to see what you can do above the westers tune.

Anything at or above 300 rwhp will be a watershed moment for the car. Stock bolt ons = +300 rwhp =  

[Dave@DDMworks]

Great comparison info Imaj with the dyno! I take it you don't have the GM tune? I do and am interested in how that goes. Vince says he can do great things with it too.

It will be great to see what you can do above the westers tune.

Anything at or above 300 rwhp will be a watershed moment for the car. Stock bolt ons = +300 rwhp = 

Actually 300whp has been done with just bolt ons, the sky here at the shop did over 400 ft/lbs of torque and 300hp at the wheels. The GXP we used for some development hit 295hp and 345 ft/lbs with stock turbo, stock downpipe and stock cat at only 21psi. That was the car that we tested the intercooler, intake, charge tubes and tunes on, her only other mod was a magnaflow exhaust. The real limiting factor seems to be the exhaust side of the turbine, that is a tiny little exhaust to be flowing those kind of horsepower numbers through, at some point you just can not push anymore exhaust through the turbo, you can run more pressure to help push it out, but everyone is so far off of the stock compressor map already, that at what point do you stop? The more pressure you push at this point, the lower the adiabatic efficiency you are seeing, which means you are heating the air more, which ultimately starts reducing power at the wheels, causing detonation, and other bad things.

I have attached a picture of the stock compressor map with some common pressures on it and air flow references, as you can see most of us are way off the map already, so it will be interesting to see how far that little turbo will go before the compressor blows apart, and or we just create so much heat that the gains in pressure are offset by the extra heat in the intake charge.



Also there are some assumptions made in this graph for atmospheric pressure, humidity, etc.

One thing to notice on the graph is how well the turbo works for the stock setup pushing 15ish PSI and 260 horsepower, it really puts the turbo in a real sweet spot for sure, and even the GM upgrade at 290 still keeps it on the map pretty well even at up to 23 psi. This is an example of a correctly sized turbo for the application, but it can only go so far.

Then for comparison this is a compressor map of the big compressor wheel that we have here, and as far as we can tell is the same compressor wheel that other vendors are using in their upgrades also.



The other big thing to consider on this, the ECM is looking for a certain air load, not a particular pressure. That is why you see varying pressures depending on what altitude you are at, and probably the reason we saw some guys go into limp mode at the dragon. As you go up in altitude, for the engine to hit the target air load it has to spin the turbine faster and run higher pressure, so if you have a tune that is already pushing 22-23 psi and you go up a couple thousand feet, it may need to push an extra 1-2psi. Which on most tunes without the beta fix from HP or Westers will cause you to go into limp mode after a few seconds. So if you tune the engine for 27psi at sea level, and you decide to go up in the mountains to play, you could start hitting 28-29psi. At some point the turbo can't be pushed to higher and higher pressures without thinking about the long term effects on the compressor or turbine.

In the end the biggest thing to be concerned with is airflow not pressure, as air mass with the right amount of fuel and a spark is what makes power. Try to get the air to flow through the system the best possible and you make more power at lower pressure

good luck though and let us know how it turns out!

Thanks,
Dave

[lil goat]

Dr. Love I love it when you talk that talk, it's just so damn sexy. Now if I could only understand half of what you said. I will say what  you see at the rear wheels does not mean squat accept in reference to the before number. If you go in with 280 and see 300, that is no different than if you go in with 250 and see 267. The dyno numbers are only relevant to themselves. I expect you might see a nice spike from the additional boost, but doubt the gains will be across the curve. I just don't think our little turbo's can blow that hard, nothing against Vince but even he can't overcome the laws of physics.

[kennysabarese]

"Actually 300whp has been done with just bolt ons, the sky here at the shop did over 400 ft/lbs of torque and 300hp at the wheels."

Dave, what mods got you these numbers?  You make it sound so easy

[Dave@DDMworks]

"Actually 300whp has been done with just bolt ons, the sky here at the shop did over 400 ft/lbs of torque and 300hp at the wheels."

Dave, what mods got you these numbers?  You make it sound so easy

The car at 295 hp/345 torque has our DDMworks Mach 2 setup which was an intercooler, intake, charge tubes and tune, plus a magnaflow exhaust, everything else was stock. (Stock downpipe and cat, stock turbo, stock throttle body, internals stock) I know it did not hit 300, but we also did not tune it on the dyno, that car was tuned on the street. We just put it on the dyno and ran it to see what we had, now I wish we would have done some dyno tuning on it, as we could of had those 300whp bragging rights

The car at 300hp /400 torque has an intercooler, intake, tubes, big compressor wheel turbo, catless downpipe, full exhaust and a tune on the dyno.

[kennysabarese]

Sounds pretty damn nice if the price is right? How much for the wheel and tune?