Author Topic: E85 sucks !!!!!  (Read 7821 times)

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Offline snaponbob

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E85 sucks !!!!!
« on: October 02, 2009, 05:55:08 PM »
I finally Googled around about specific gravity levels of various fuels and stumbled on THIS gem (it gets a bit involved, but sums up a lot of what has been said about ethanol) ----

The myth of ethanol as a fuel

With the price of petrol on the rise it was only a matter of time before the same old people would drag the same old products out of the closet and tout them as the all new, green, clean fuel solution to rising fuel prices and saving the environment. So it should be no surprise to hear the same old lobby beating the hell out of the ethanol drum. First, let me say that from an economic point of view, with current production technology, ethanol is environmentally wasteful in that it consumes more kilo joules of energy in its production than it then produces in the engine of a motor vehicle.

So why all the fuss? Further, ethanol is not a viable fuel in its own right. To stoichiometrically burn pure ethanol would require an air fuel ratio of 9.0:1 and produce extremely harmful exhaust emissions. It is primarily used as a fuel extender to reduce the consumption of pure petrol. So, what is ethanol? Ethanol (C2H5OH) is a monohydric primary alcohol. It melts at -117.30C and boils at 78.50C. It is miscible (i.e., mixes without separation) with water in all proportions and is separated from water only with difficulty. Ethanol that is completely free of water is called absolute ethanol. It has a specific gravity of 0.79 and consists of 52% carbon, 13% hydrogen and 35% oxygen and it is the oxygen contained within the fuel that makes it of so much interest. Unfortunately, ethanol has a comparatively low calorific value* of only 28.6 MJ/kg compared to 43.5 MJ/kg of petrol which means that it requires an additional 35% more ethanol to release the same amount of energy as petrol.

This fact is clearly revealed by comparing the stoichiometric air/fuel requirement of petrol (14.73:1) to that of ethanol (9.0:1). However, this disparity is not born out in test results. In general, the fuel economy of an engine using a 10% ethanol/petrol blend is usually only 3% to 4% lower than the same engine using 100% petrol as a fuel. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it readily absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The use of ethanol in fuel means that water will be absorbed from the atmosphere and passed along with ethanol and fuel to the combustion chamber of the engine. As long as the ethanol is correctly stored prior to blending with raw fuel there should not be any problems. However, when pure ethanol is exposed to the atmosphere for prolonged periods it will absorb unacceptable levels of moisture from the air. All of which means that ethanol should be blended with fuel as soon as practical after final processing. An often overlooked fact about ethanol is the large disparity between its viscosity (stickiness or ability to flow) and that of the petrol, the fuel it is most generally mixed with. At 200C the viscosity of ethanol is 1.5 mm2/s where as petrol is only 0.60 mm2/s.

This can cause fuel flow problems around high flow/small orifice areas such as injector pintles and discharge nozzles that were only designed for the passage and metering of petrol. This additional viscosity can cause driveability emission problems when the vehicle is briskly accelerated from a standing start. Ethanol burns in air with a blue flame forming carbon dioxide and water and reacts with active metals to form the metal ethoxide and hydrogen, e.g., with sodium it forms sodium ethoxide. It reacts with certain acids to form esters, e.g., with acetic acid it forms ethyl acetate. It can be oxidised to form acetic acid and acetaldehyde. It can be dehydrated to form diethyl ether or, at higher temperatures, ethylene. I will discuss this fact further in my next article.

Preparation Ethanol is the alcohol of beer, wines, and liquors. It can be prepared by the fermentation of sugar (e.g., from molasses) which requires an enzyme catalyst, that is present in yeast, or it can be prepared by the fermentation of starch (e.g., from corn, rice, rye, or potatoes), which requires, in addition to the yeast enzyme, an enzyme present in an extract of malt. The concentration of ethanol obtained by fermentation is limited to about 10% (20 proof) since at higher concentrations ethanol inhibits the catalytic effect of the yeast enzyme. (The proof concentration of an alcoholic beverage is numerically double the percentage con-centration.) For non-beverage uses, ethanol is more commonly prepared by passing ethylene gas at high pressure into concentrated sulphuric or phosphoric acid to form the corresponding ester. The acid-ester mixture is diluted with water and heated, forming ethanol by hydrolysis, and the alcohol is then removed from the mixture by distillation, usually with steam.

Still in the future Cellulose: There has yet to be a commercial plant using cellulose from agricultural or municipal wastes as a feedstock, instead of the more traditional feed stocks. The ethanol from the cellulose process is complex and costly and is still in the research and development stage. Uses Ethanol is used extensively as a solvent, disinfectant and as a fuel and gasoline extender called gasohol. Many U.S. automobiles manufactured since 1998 have been specially equipped as duel fuel vehicles to enable them to run on either gasoline or E85, a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. However, E85 is not yet widely available which implies that engines do have to be specially engineered, in both metallurgy and engine management, to run successfully on ethanol both for engine longevity and to meet emission standards. Engineers have been tinkering with the idea of using ethanol as a fuel for a very long time and its something of mystery why the current crop of ethanol proponents would spend so little time researching previous experiences, particularly the issue of economically viable production.

It is interesting to scan the time line (right) to see exactly when ethanol came into use. At no stage in 180 years has any company, organisation or individual, managed to economically produce ethanol for use as an automobile fuel. It has always required the intervention of governments to prop up ethanol production with a subsidy. The operative word in the history of enthanol appears to be subsidy. Apart from needy special interest groups such as cane farmers and a politically well-connected manufacturer, no one benefits. So it is hard to under-stand why Australia is going down this road especially when we enormous reserves of LPG which really could do the job. The decision to blend petrol and ethanol is more about the realities of politics than engineering. So whats new? In my next article, I will discuss the effects of ethanol on engine performance, fuel economy, engine metallurgy, engine management and exhaust emissions. * Calorific value is the calories, or thermal units, contained in one unit of a substance and released-heat release-when the substance is burned
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« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 08:22:33 PM by DeepBlueGXP »
Bob Buxbaum
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 06:03:03 PM »
So, would a redneck using the leftovers from his still to fuel his carbureted drag car since he can't afford race gas be cool or not?  :poke:
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 06:07:27 PM »
Depends on what he was using for his base stock !!!    :poke::poke: backatchya     :woohoo: :rofl: :lol: ;) ;)
Bob Buxbaum
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2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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lil goat

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 06:44:43 PM »
Hey Bob how about a short version I am to tired to read all that, I believe if they can make e85 from waste products that is fine but growing stuff just to make it is stupid, with waste products there is no use of any fuel to just create e85, other than the energy to process it. So e85 would be great if they make it from some of the horse sh!t that is so abundant here in DC, put a plant right on Capital Hill or they could get some from Fed Ex field it has smelled really bad lately.

Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 07:02:11 PM »
Hey Bob how about a short version I am to tired to read all that, I believe if they can make e85 from waste products that is fine but growing stuff just to make it is stupid, with waste products there is no use of any fuel to just create e85, other than the energy to process it. So e85 would be great if they make it from some of the horse sh!t that is so abundant here in DC, put a plant right on Capital Hill or they could get some from Fed Ex field it has smelled really bad lately.

It says that MORE energy is required to produce the gallon of ethanol than that gallon of gas it was supposed to replace. If fairness, (as I have said) first generation ("food" based) ethanol is a net loser. SECOND generation ethanol IS based on recycled [fill in the blank] as well as renewable "junk" crops like switch grass, etc. But the SUBSTANTIAL challenge of gathering, and then transporting all the usable materials of 2nd gen E. Assuming there is a practical (cheap) method for that, then there is the very expense transportation of the finished product (one tank truck or rail tanker) at a time since it can not be pipe lined. Germany can handle this more easily that us as their country is so much smaller than ours, and their government model MAKES it happen while we ASK for it to happen. (That was NOT an invitation for everybody to hijack this with a bunch of politics!)

As for the horse poop on Capitol Hill fueling a power plant, it is probably already being sent over to Georgetown to fuel THAT steam plant that is used to heat and power so many of the government buildings even as we speak. Jim, you must know where that plant is !!!!!!!! It's right on the Potomac near the bottom of Wisconsin Ave. Think about it !!!!!!  Capitol Hill horse crap firing a place producing a bunch of steam. Now, THAT would be TRUE recycling.   
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline Chemist

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2009, 10:39:10 PM »
We have a group of undergraduate students working on a cellulosic ethanol  production scheme. If/when they get to large enough production levels, we can run our campus transportation on it. The fuel storage and transport problems would be minimal and we'd be able to convert lawn clippings into fuel.

At present, biodiesel _is_ a plausible option, but the government wants to tax the fuel you make as well as the fuel you buy, effectibely putting a lid on that. :(
I'd rather be driving! :D

Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 09:16:48 AM »
At present, biodiesel _is_ a plausible option, but the government wants to tax the fuel you make as well as the fuel you buy, effectibely putting a lid on that. :(

Even for personal use? McDonald's (in a pilot project) has started collecting used fry oil and processing it for part of their fleet of trucks. Also, whether of not he is still building them, there was a fellow that was building and selling a cooking oil recycling system that was small enough to be used in a back yard sized/style shed that could easily produce enough bio-diesel to keep ones person cars running on a continuous basis. As I understand, bio-diesel is only viable in cool to warm weather but not cold. I guess winter fuel additives such as Howes (GREAT product) don't work in bio-diesel.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2009, 09:31:40 AM »
We have a group of undergraduate students working on a cellulosic ethanol  production scheme. If/when they get to large enough production levels, we can run our campus transportation on it. The fuel storage and transport problems would be minimal and we'd be able to convert lawn clippings into fuel.

Since you have direct contact/involvement with second generation ethanol, maybe you have looked into transportation issues. Germany can federally mandate such controls as REQUIRING collection of materials used in cellulosic production. (You should hear about what Germany REQUIRES power companies to pay home owners for their excess power that is produced by at-home solar panels and/or wind systems. SIX to SEVEN times what the power companies SELL electricity for. Try THAT here ----HA!!!) And due to the size of the country, transportation is cheaper. Also, the transportation to SELL the product is cheaper for the same reason. So, is cellulosic ethanol just as corrosive to pipe lines? How about rail tank cars? In other words, is it LOGISTICALLY viable WITHOUT subsides? The reason I ask is that as this point, the subsides have all but ended for ethanol production, and not only are production companies going bankrupt but almost ALL construction (planned or started) has ceased.   
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Ben L

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
There are Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) and processed biodiesel, and I think they are different.  To run SVO you need a heater for the filtered fry grease and a small tank of straight diesel.  You start on the straight stuff, and when the SVO reaches operating temp, switch tanks.  A DIYer can also process (transesterify) vegetable oil and grease, adding methanol and sodium or potassium hydroxide under heat, and settling out the glycerine byproduct.  40 gallons in 48 hours to run a batch and one manhour of setup time.  I think the processed stuff runs like regular petro or bio diesel, and stays liquified in cold temps.  Probably a dozen companies selling DIY processors at present.

Either way, you start with waste cooking oil:  You do have to collect it.  Also the processor stinks apparently. Both SVO and biodiesel have strong solvent properties and are tough on rubber.  You need to replace seals and O rings with FKM (Viton) seals.  

Wonder what you could accomplish on processed fry grease biodiesel with a BMW Twin Turbo 3.0 Diesel?

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 03:38:53 PM by Ben L »

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2009, 03:54:39 PM »
Top Gear grew some biodiesel, then entered a 24 hr endurance race with is. One of their better episodes, 3 TV hosts and 1 tame race car driver participating in a real race. I think they finished second in their class or something.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2009, 05:02:01 PM »
"Grew" some bio-diesel !?!?!?!?!?!  :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: Now, THAT is FUNNY. A diesel power PLANT. I love it.  :poke:  ;)
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline Uranium-238

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2009, 05:52:18 PM »
Seriously. During the tractor challenge they planted seed for some plant which is used to produce biodiesel. After it was harvested and processed, they raced with that fuel.
2005 Chevy Silverado Z71 Crew Cab, LM7 4L60E (What I traded my Kappa for. I regret nothing.)
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2009, 06:53:16 PM »
Diesel berries !!!!!!!  :rofl:
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2009, 09:19:36 PM »
Diesel berries !!!!!!!  :rofl:
It that the name of the new Captain Crunch cereal?
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: E85 sucks !!!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2009, 09:23:23 PM »
It that the name of the new Captain Crunch cereal?

D'OH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing