Author Topic: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!  (Read 62337 times)

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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« on: August 09, 2010, 08:25:33 PM »
About a week ago ChuckDoc, Critterman and I met for lunch and Chuckdoc said his car was smoking intermittently.  We didn't see anything as he drove off.  Then the next day or so he said he wanted to come over and have me check the car over since it smokes quite a bit after a short drive at 60mph.
He also complained of noise with the airconditioner.

My first plan was to take off his stock intake (stock air-filter) and see if there was oil in the pipe.  If so then the PCV valve is bad.

Saturday he shows up, we change the oil and filter and I pull the air intake.  There is oil in the intake.  I pull the PCV with the hose attached and wash it out in gasoline.  I can't quite hear the rattle.  Reasemble the car and go out for a test drive to see if we can make it smoke.  While out Chuck turns on his AC and hits the gas a little and I hear a rattle that sound like knock to me. 

We went back and I got HPTuners hooked up and we took it for a short run without the AC on and it made the same rattle and HPTuners was reporting knock up 7-10 constant with WOT.   I sent him home with his stock GMPP upgrade tune while I consult Lyndon.

Below is the 4 emails in order as they happened.

       
Quote
----- Original Message -----
        From: Joe - KP Forum Admin
        To: Programmer ; Programmer
        Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 6:57 AM
        Subject: Chuck Shuman's tune knock

        Lyndon,

        Chuck Shuman was over to get his oil change and said his car was smoking a bit and he had some noise in his engine when his AC was on so I went for drive with him.  It was severe knock.  So I did a scan and saved the log.    I installed his stock GMPP tune.

        Attached are three files.  The latest tune from you.  A log of that tune and a log of the GMPP tune after I installed it yesterday.

        Chuck's mods

        GMPP Sensor upgrade w/Solo High Flow Cat and Mach exhaust.
         

        Regards,
        Joe


   
Quote
From: Programmer <ecmprogrammer@canopycanada.net>
    To: Joe - KP Forum Admin <kappaperformance@yahoo.com>
    Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 10:13:24 AM
    Subject: Re: Chuck Shuman's tune knock

    Test this, and verify that there is no oil in his intake system. Don't see any reason why
    it'd be into KR so hard with the prior file.
     
    Lyndon
    www.westersgarage.com
    WESTERS GARAGE
    218 Centre Street
    Box 159
    Tilley, Alberta T0J3K0
    1-888-WESTER-1
    403 377-2277
    403 377 2270 (Fax)
     
    Please respond with prior email responses intact, as you're not our only customer and
    we have to wade through emails to find prior information from your request.


 
Quote
   ----- Original Message -----
    From: Joe - KP Forum Admin
    To: Programmer
    Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:48 PM
    Subject: Re: Chuck Shuman's tune knock

    He had oil in his intake, we cleaned the PCV valve and he ordered a new one.  He has a stock air box and filter so the PCV could be the issue with the knock?     

    Regards,
    Joe     


Quote
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Programmer <ecmprogrammer@canopycanada.net>
To: Joe - KP Forum Admin <kappaperformance@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 6:51:58 PM
Subject: Re: Chuck Shuman's tune knock

Absolutely--oil causes detonation !
 
Lyndon
www.westersgarage.com
WESTERS GARAGE
218 Centre Street
Box 159
Tilley, Alberta T0J3K0
1-888-WESTER-1
403 377-2277
403 377 2270 (Fax)
 
Please respond with prior email responses intact, as you're not our only customer and
we have to wade through emails to find prior information from your request.

So you see, bad PCV valves are very very bad for a 2.0L turbo, especially tuned.  Had we not caught this, this could have resulted in a blown engine.  It may be the result of other blown engines we have read about. 

Lesson, if your car is smoking, drive it gently and get it to service.  Figure out if the PCV valve is bad and replace it.  DO NOT GO WOT with a smoking car, it's like putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger.


Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2010, 08:30:18 PM »
I for one would NEVER trust a PCV valve in that case. Looks like it's dual oil catch cans for me...
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Offline DigiSol

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 08:35:05 PM »
What color smoke are we talking about?

Offline Sly Bob

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 08:38:46 PM »
Thanks Joe, good information.

I haven't been following the oil catch can thread. I assume a catch can would prevent this from happening?
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 08:56:19 PM »
Oil smoke is blueish-grey, gasoline burns brownish, diesel is black.

Bob, in theory a catch can will prevent this, but from what I've seen some cans may be better at this than others.
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Offline chuckdoc

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 09:36:42 PM »
For 7 bucks and a 10 min job (you do need a special tool) it is very easy to replace the pcv valve.   I have around 65,000 miles on the car.  I would just replace it at the first sign of smoke, once you reach 50,000 miles.  Just too easy.
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 10:03:12 PM »
My brand-spanking new PCV valve failed within TWO WEEKS. I know I keep saying this, but my experience has always been that PCV valves are prone to failures like this.
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Offline HAMMER DOWN

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 10:11:19 PM »
For 7 bucks and a 10 min job (you do need a special tool) it is very easy to replace the pcv valve.   I have around 65,000 miles on the car.  I would just replace it at the first sign of smoke, once you reach 50,000 miles.  Just too easy.

I have over 52k, on smoke or oil in the intake. Special tool, is it like GM fuel line disconnect tool.

mike 
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Offline spicy3480

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 11:18:34 PM »
This sounds like it is serious...does anyone have any info on installing a catch can? 
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 11:22:44 PM »
This is a very important subject that I'm trying hard to understand. Allegedly everyone has a little bit of oil right at the turbo inlet. This is because there is a vent hose that dumps air from the crankcase and that can have a little oil in it. I don't think that oil can get the entire intake pipe coated. BUT oil coming from the PCV valve certainly could cause this.

Notice in my pictures below that there is some spots of oil in the intake on the filter side. And some on the other end where it meets the turbo. It doesn't look like much.

The first step to check is to just look at the PCV, you can pop it off and see if it's dirty. If it is, then dig deeper.

Also check if you have too much oil. Allegedly from the oil catch can thread, if it's overfilled it'll reach the PCV, and eventually leak beyond it into the intake. It's really difficult to get the right oil level in this car. I keep filling it to what seems to be the right spot, starting the engine, letting it sit, then checking. Then I go for a drive, let it sit, and it's overfilled!

Anyway, I spoke with Lyndon a little bit about this today myself. I'm getting a bit of KR, and it could be caused by oil being burned like he said with chucks car "oil causes detonation"

He also said that oil will get into the intercooler and that you can drain it out. Here are the directions he gave me

Quote
...you could drill a 1/64 hole in the lowest point to always make sure it blows the oil out, or drains out.

It's a small enough hole to not affect boost substantially. Once totally cleaned out, you can epoxy it closed. (Or you can put a larger hole, bolt-with seal).

So the only question I have is how do these pictures of my intake compare with chucks car?

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]

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Offline markrat

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 12:36:06 AM »
All,
   Below is a copy and paste from my 2.0L manual.  Not sure if anyone is interested.

CRANKCASE VENTILATION SYSTEM INSPECTION/DIAGNOSIS
1. Disconnect the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) line.
2. Start the engine.
3. Check for vacuum at the PCV line. If there is no vacuum, inspect for a plugged line or
camshaft cover port. Inspect for a hose that collapses when blocked with vacuum applied.
Replace the plugged or the deteriorated hoses.
4. Allow the engine to idle at normal operating temperature.
5. Remove the engine oil level indicator. Install a vacuum gage into the indicator tube opening.
6. Block off the PCV system fresh air intake passage.
7. Run the engine at 1,500 RPM for 30 seconds, then read the vacuum gage while engine is
running at 1,500 RPM.
 If vacuum is present, the crankcase ventilation system is functioning properly.
 If no vacuum is indicated, the engine may not be sealed and is drawing in outside air.
Check the valve covers, the oil pan gasket, or other sealing areas for leaks.
 If the vacuum gage registers a pressure, or if the vacuum gage is pushed out of the
indicator tube, check for a plugged PCV port, a plugged line, or excessive engine
blow-by.

CRANKCASE VENTILATION SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
General Description
A crankcase ventilation system is used to consume crankcase vapors in the combustion process
instead of venting them to atmosphere. Fresh air from the intake system is supplied to the
crankcase, mixed with blow by gases and then passed through a calibrated orifice into the intake
manifold.
Operation
The primary control is through the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) orifice which meters the
flow at a rate depending on inlet vacuum. The PCV orifice is an integral part of the camshaft
cover. If abnormal operating conditions occur, the system is designed to allow excessive amounts
of blow by gases to back flow through the crankcase vent into the intake system to be consumed
by normal combustion.
On the turbocharged engine, there is a one way valve in the intake manifold in order to prevent
the crankcase from being pressurized by positive pressure in the intake manifold when the
turbocharger is in operation. When the turbocharger is operational, the pressure in the intake
manifold can exceed atmospheric pressure which, without the one way valve, would force oil and
PCV gases out of the camshaft cover and into the induction system, via the hose to the camshaft
cover. This can cause coking of the throttle body and induction system, and can reduce the
efficiency of both combustion and the intercooler system, in normal operation the PCV gases are
drawn into the air stream post intercooler.
Mark

Offline Arabas

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 03:02:34 AM »
Great info Joe,
thx a lot for posting and also thanx to Lyndon for his help!!!
have to get my pcv valve replaced asap.
now i think that we should all check a double oil catch can.
i would really love if a vendor could offer a good and reasonable priced solution for all of us.
i would rather buy it from a vendor of ours...
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Offline Kuprito

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 05:29:23 AM »
Could anybody show the PCV itself?
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Offline chuckdoc

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 07:26:04 AM »
In the diagnoses of system, they never mention
Replacing the valve?  Did I miss it?
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 07:47:20 AM »
Quote
Below is a copy and paste from my 2.0L manual.  Not sure if anyone is interested.

This is awesome. I can probably rejigger the poor man's boost gauge to tackle that.
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 07:49:52 AM »
Kenny, Chuck had more oil that yours, it was running out of the bottom.

Kuprito, the PCV valve is on the braided hose that comes off the right side of the valve cover and ends at the airbox nipple (check the third photo on Kenny's post for the nipple)

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 08:02:32 AM »
Looks like there is a way to drain oil from the stock intercooler via the hose underneath. Can anyone confirm or deny?

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]


Here is the PCV

[attachment=3]
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Offline chuckdoc

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 09:25:58 AM »
If you notice, the vacuum hose they are talking about in the manual is steel braided.  Good luck in following the procedure of inspecting for collapsing.

No wonder dealers can fix no problems on our cars.

On BB, someone with same issues took car in and just was told, the old failure to duplicate.   
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Offline smartin

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 10:17:13 AM »
DBG/chuckdoc, you might want to tell "someone" about this. You can see in my avatar how his Sol was smoking in this picture from a few weeks ago.


Click to enlarge

Offline Critterman

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 10:23:19 AM »
Following Chuck down the road the day this was discovered the smoke was white with a slight tint of blue occassionally.  Grant had this same issue when we were all up in PA.  Grant ended up buying an SUV to pull his car from Ohio to Colorado, because he couldn't get parts and didn't want to drive it that far the way it was.

Chuck's was no way as bad as Grants.  In Chuck's case I don't think he could see the puffs from the car, you have to be behind the car following it.
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 10:59:53 AM »
I just talked to that "someone" and let him know.

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 11:02:34 AM »
Kenny, Chuck had more oil that yours, it was running out of the bottom.

I bet he's got a lot of oil in the IC as well. Anyone know if that hose on the bottom of the IC is for draining oil?
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Offline Treeman

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 12:17:39 PM »
On BB, someone with same issues took car in and just was told, the old saying "failure to duplicate".
  :huh:

[EDIT - DBG] changed chuckdoc's quote for what he intended to say
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 03:05:04 PM by DeepBlueGXP »
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Offline smartin

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 12:18:44 PM »
I just talked to that "someone" and let him know.

Thanks, I had told him at the time. But this brings a whole new perspective.

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Re: Smoke coming from your tailpipe - must read!!!
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 12:40:22 PM »
Kenny,
I don't think that's what the hose is for, or even if it is a hose.  I thought it was a rubber shield to protect the bottom of the IC
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