Topic: E85 and the LNF - Some Cobalts are doing it

[kennysabarese]

Here's a thread about a few guys trying to get more ethanol into their fuel by mixing E10 (the gas that is in most pumps nowadays) and E85.

I will try to summarize, but I am not the most knowledgeable so please correct me if I summarized wrong.

Too much ETHANOL in a car that is not designed for it CAN and WILL DESTROY your fuel system, a GM engineer at Nationals told me NOT to put ANY amount of E85 in the car because things WILL break.

GM Flex Fuel vehicles are meant to handle high ethanol levels and have some fancy gear in them to optimize for that fuel. I'm sure the other manufacturers do this as well.

That being said... here you go.

The experiment was begun by I Am Broke on HPTuners forum. He is a very experienced tuner and allegedly knows a lot about fuels, I think he works with fuel for his job, and I don't mean pumping it.

He's able to increase timing a lot because ethanol has a higher octane than gasoline. But ethanol doesn't have as much energy in it as gas, so you can reach a point where you start to lose performance.

Right now 1 gallon of E85 to 1 gallon of 93 octane E10 gave him the best performance. He mentions 60-100 times

Too much ethanol and you need more fuel pressure from the HPFP so he got a Trifecta tune, but the additional pressure didn't make it better. So he went back to 1:1 and has settled there.

Here is the thread. Lots of info there.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30353

[Uranium-238]

ETHANOL CAN and WILL DESTROY your fuel system, a GM engineer at Nationals told me NOT to put ANY amount of E85 in the car because things WILL break.

And the government says regular gas with (up to 10%) ethanol isn't supposed to worry us?

[kennysabarese]

And the government says regular gas with (up to 10%) ethanol isn't supposed to worry us?

Good catch, my statement was not fully correct. modified it to be more accurate

Too much ETHANOL in a car that is not designed for it CAN and WILL DESTROY your fuel system, a GM engineer at Nationals told me NOT to put ANY amount of E85 in the car because things WILL break

[TomatoSoup]

Just as an aside, how come a gallon of E85 is around $3, yet a gallon of denatured alcohol (nearly pure Ethanol) is like $50?

[Uranium-238]

Probably the same reason why a certain utility knife I own sells for $25 at Micheals, and cost me $3 at True Value. Same exact knife, same exact packaging.

[kennysabarese]

Subsidies.

[efbrodiesr]

Just as an aside, how come a gallon of E85 is around $3, yet a gallon of denatured alcohol (nearly pure Ethanol) is like $50?

Tax!!! as a fuel it is taxed different than as a solvent. When I worked in a lab many years ago, I saw the actual price of the ethyl alcohol and then the huge amount of taxes added to it.  The taxes were many times the actual value of the alcohol.

[elff]

Road use is another reason.

Diesel for Farm equipment is substantially cheaper than diesel for the street. 
If you get busted filling up a street vehicle with the cheap stuff, you can get a hefty fine

[2.0 tspeed]

we need bigger injectors to run full e85 its been done on the lsj motors and , plenty of hondas, srt4's and evos are doing it down here in florida its not hard, our lnf motors dont have larger aftermarket injectors yet. if anybody finds some let me know

[kennysabarese]

Call GM Racing, they probably know. Or will tell you to get another engine.

The current ones are from Bosch and flow 20cc/min @ 1450 PSI

[Graywolf]

Another big advantage of running E85 is that it burns cooler. Important in racing. All the Indy cars burn it.  Currently I am using Sunoco 100 octane unleaded $8.50/gal @ the track or Shell 93 with a can of Torqueco unleaded octane booster/ 10 Gallons-$20 per can. Can't wait to be able to burn E85,much cheaper.

[Graywolf]

Another big advantage of running E85 is that it burns cooler. Important in racing. All the Indy cars burn it.  Currently I am using Sunoco 100 octane unleaded $8.50/gal @ the track or Shell 93 with a can of Torqueco unleaded octane booster/ 10 Gallons-$20 per can. Can't wait to be able to burn E85,much cheaper.

[snaponbob]

E85 has come down to about $1.75/gal. Besides all the other things that are wrong with ethanol as a transportation fuel (and there is a laundry list), it can not be pipelined and therefore must be trucked. If there are no ethanol plants near Maryland, you are paying the transportation cost WITH a mark up. (An example of what is wrong with ethanol - a HUGE carbon foot print.) 

[snaponbob]

Call GM Racing, they probably know.

No they won't. They could not care less about the LNF as they are not concerned with its development as a race engine. As far as injectors, do NOT hold your breath. I have spoken with a couple of outfits that do aftermarket injectors, and they have said that with the limited number of LNF engines there is no business model that makes economic sense for developing big injectors for it. We have what we have.

[kennysabarese]

Ok there you have it. Buy an NA and go nuts.

[snaponbob]

Ok there you have it. Buy an NA and go nuts.

Actually, knowing what I now know, building a 2.4 Kappa for SSM would be a REAL hoot. It absolutely would be better than building up a 2.0, for now other reason than the hardware exists to use E85 on the 2.4.

[Uranium-238]

SSM allow engine swaps? I mean could we swap out our 2.0's and go with something else when parts get even harder to find? Or would that bump us into XP or something similar?

[NormSky]

2.4 with the 16G can make 350 trq to the wheels and very early too compared to 2.0.

[snaponbob]

SSM allows ANY GM engine ANYWHERE in the world. Swapping OUT a 2.0 in favor of a 2.4 makes no sense due to all the stuff that would have to changes as well. Cheaper to find a 2.4 beater and go from there, while selling off the GXP or Redline.

[Uranium-238]

A 4-banger swap would require the 2.0 to have blown up first.

All this is part of my keep it or not thought process. If I keep it, a backup plan for scarce parts is a must.

[1LILNDN]

we need bigger injectors to run full e85 its been done on the lsj motors and , plenty of hondas, srt4's and evos are doing it down here in florida its not hard, our lnf motors dont have larger aftermarket injectors yet. if anybody finds some let me know

 I though that GM had larger injectors for the Colbalt SS and the HHR  SS . There were a couple guys talking about Putting them in their Colbalt .  I could be wrong (that won't be the 1st time and probly won't be the last)

[snaponbob]

I though that GM had larger injectors for the Colbalt SS and the HHR  SS . There were a couple guys talking about Putting them in their Colbalt .  I could be wrong (that won't be the 1st time and probly won't be the last)

I believe there are bigger injectors for the pre-LNF Balts and HHRs. Not the LNFs. One must assume that if bigger LNF injectors existed that DDM, Dejon, Vince, Lyndon, BTF, and others would know about them. Another consideration is bigger pumps (none out there) would be needed, and the rest of the fuel delivery system would have to be E85 compatible (seals, hoes, etc.). Wet blanket, aren't I ??   

[kennysabarese]

Ecotec build book walks you step by step on how to build the ecotec to whatever power level you want. Now that's a drag application, but most of the stuff is the same.

They start with the L61 2.2 engine. Looks like they can be had for around 1,000 bucks on ebay.

[snaponbob]

Ecotec build book walks you step by step on how to build the ecotec to whatever power level you want. Now that's a drag application, but most of the stuff is the same.

They start with the L61 2.2 engine. Looks like they can be had for around 1,000 bucks on ebay.

Correct. That book was released before the LNF was put in any cars. ALL sorts of good stuff is available for the non-D.I. engines in the Ecotec family.

[old goat]

Rhys Millen goy over 500hp out of an LSJ in a Solstice on e85, said it is why he won Pikes Peak, it ran so much cooler. Kind of an issue in an all uphill race, told me after 2 years of racing the seals were starting to break down. Gary Gardella got 1450 hp out of the ecotec drag motor with and SC, they get about 500 out of the Solstice with the LSJ on race gas, they got about 335 out of the LNF on race gas but torque was around 450.