Topic: Spark Plugs....

[tazz]

The lower number is the colder plug. Like you said they looked OK and if I were you just clean them up and put them back in.

That's what I thought but wanted to make sure that the one that on my vehicle was the colder plug as one of the posts was a bit confusing to me.
That's exactly what I did cleaned them up and put them back in.
Right now which plug I had in (colder or hotter) really didn't make a difference at this point but when I get the Tune in I want the coldest plug out of the bunch that I can get away with without them carbon fouling.  When I get the Lydon tune and if the plugs start to Carbon foul I will then go up to the 41-108's but if I'm not having a problem now I really don't forsee a problem when I have the tune.

[Sol Asylum]

Tazz

If you look in your owners manual, you still have it right, on page 355 for the 07 model year it shows that you should have a 41-102 plug.  Which would mean you are still running the original plugs and they look fine based on your pictures.  So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[tazz]

I'm not changing them out since there in good shape and since there the colder plug which is actualy what i want when I get the Lydon tune. 
Interesting info though I talked to a Ac/Delco tech and he did confirm that the 41-108 is a hotter plug from Reading the actual TSB and info that was giving to GM dealers.  He also stated that if one does check the stock plugs to make sure they clean off the threads since the oil grime and combustion debris on them could cause the plating on the threads to scape off when reinstalled.  This was per the TBS info.  Also if one does have the issue and replaces the plugs with the 41-108's they need to reset the ECM because of the misfires that the ECM logs and adjusts the running of the vehicle because of the misfires.
I've also found out that if one switches to an aftermarket plug they may or may not have the updated heat range listed.  Take for example Denso Iridium plugs.  The Denso Iridium plug listed for the GXP and Redline is the ITV16 which is a hot plug similar to the 41-108 replacement plug.  If you want the colder Denso plug you will probably need to get the IK20 plug also a Iridium plug.  This plug is still listed for the Chevy Cobalt SS 2.0L turbo and is indeed a colder plug than the ITV16 and would probably be helpful to those running increased boost and HP in there vehicle since it gives more protection against spark knock than a hotter plug.  The trade off is that there may be carbon fouling with the colder plug since it does not reach temp to self clean and thus robs you of power by misfiring and that's why GM went with a hotter plug to fix this issue.

[Ceeker]

Subject: LNF 2.0L Turbocharged Engine Crank, No Start, MIL/DTCs P033t, P0341 and/or P300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304 Due to Fuel Fouled Spark Plugs (Replace Spark Plugs) #07-06-04-010B - (06/15/2007)

Models: 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP

2007 Saturn Sky Red Line

2007 Opel GT (Export Only)

2007 Daewoo G2X (Export Only)

with ECOTEC® 2.0L I4 Turbocharged Engine (VIN X - RPO LNF)

Built Prior to VIN Breakpoint 7Y139741

This bulletin is being revised to add VIN breakpoint information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 07-06-04-010A (Section 06 -- Engine/Propulsion System).


Condition

Some customers may comment on a crank and no start condition. This may be experienced on vehicles that have repeatedly been driven short distances without reaching operating temperature. This condition is most likely to occur when the vehicle is still a dealer stock unit or when the vehicle arrives at the dealership on the transporter. This condition may also occur if the car is driven in short duration trips.
DTCs P0335 and/or P0341 could be stored in history if the engine was cranked excessively with fouled spark plugs. DTCs P0300 - P0304 may be stored if the engine eventually starts with the fouled spark plugs.

Cause

This condition may be caused by the engine not reaching operating temperature before turning off the ignition.

Correction

Refer to Spark Plug Replacement in SI for replacement of the spark plugs with P/N12617309. The replacement higher heat range spark plugs have better cold start characteristics.
Clear any DTCs stored in the PCM. In order to prevent a reoccurrence, allow the engine reach operating temperature before turning off the engine and returning the vehicle to the customer.

Parts Information

Part Number Description
12617309 Spark Plugs
12345579 (U.S)
1974984 (Canada) Dielectric Silicone Grease

Warranty Information

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:
Labor Operation Description Labor Time
J4226 Plugs, Spark - One - Replace Use Published Labor Operation Time

[tazz]

Thanks that's the TSB he quoted from.

[tazz]

I do have a ? about lightly fouled plugs with slight miss?
Could a person let the vehicle reach Operating temp then while in Park bring up the Revs to 3-4K and hold them there for a minute or two.
I did this on another vehicle of mine and it seemed to work no more fouling and missing if I did this every so often.  The slight miss would work out in about 30 sec.

[Frank I]

Now I'm a bit confused.
Which one is the colder plug?
Which one is the hotter plug?
Your last statement is correct "Running a hotter plug when not necessary does not make good sense, especially in a Turbo car."
So depending on which plug I have whether it was OK or fouled I would want the colder plug in any case.
I'm pulling them this morning so I can take a look at them.
Thanks

Tazz:

Sorry for the confusion.  The stock plug is the 41-102 and it is a colder plug.  This damn swine flu makes my head spin!!!!!  Sorry for the error.

Frank I

[snaponbob]

Subject: LNF 2.0L Turbocharged Engine Crank, No Start, MIL/DTCs P033t, P0341 and/or P300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304 Due to Fuel Fouled Spark Plugs (Replace Spark Plugs) #07-06-04-010B - (06/15/2007)

Models: 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP

2007 Saturn Sky Red Line

2007 Opel GT (Export Only)

2007 Daewoo G2X (Export Only)

with ECOTEC® 2.0L I4 Turbocharged Engine (VIN X - RPO LNF)

Built Prior to VIN Breakpoint 7Y139741

This bulletin is being revised to add VIN breakpoint information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 07-06-04-010A (Section 06 -- Engine/Propulsion System).


Condition

Some customers may comment on a crank and no start condition. This may be experienced on vehicles that have repeatedly been driven short distances without reaching operating temperature. This condition is most likely to occur when the vehicle is still a dealer stock unit or when the vehicle arrives at the dealership on the transporter. This condition may also occur if the car is driven in short duration trips.
DTCs P0335 and/or P0341 could be stored in history if the engine was cranked excessively with fouled spark plugs. DTCs P0300 - P0304 may be stored if the engine eventually starts with the fouled spark plugs.

Cause

This condition may be caused by the engine not reaching operating temperature before turning off the ignition.

Correction

Refer to Spark Plug Replacement in SI for replacement of the spark plugs with P/N12617309. The replacement higher heat range spark plugs have better cold start characteristics.
Clear any DTCs stored in the PCM. In order to prevent a reoccurrence, allow the engine reach operating temperature before turning off the engine and returning the vehicle to the customer.

Parts Information

Part Number Description
12617309 Spark Plugs
12345579 (U.S)
1974984 (Canada) Dielectric Silicone Grease

Warranty Information

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:
Labor Operation Description Labor Time
J4226 Plugs, Spark - One - Replace Use Published Labor Operation Time

Thanks for copying the TSB here. Way too many people say that this TSB doesn't exist. About 2 years ago this was the TSB that my (no closed) Saturn store used to replace my plugs due to a common cold start hesitation. Clearly they solved the problem. I will be asking Lyndonj about going back to cooler plugs with his tune.

[redlinedude]

Thanks for copying the TSB here. Way too many people say that this TSB doesn't exist. About 2 years ago this was the TSB that my (no closed) Saturn store used to replace my plugs due to a common cold start hesitation. Clearly they solved the problem. I will be asking Lyndon about going back to cooler plugs with his tune.

Is there a cooler plug available for the LNF?

[Imaj]

I will be asking Lyndonj about going back to cooler plugs with his tune.

You should always run a cooler plug with a tune. Especially, with a tune as hot as Westers.

[redlinedude]

I do not think they make a "colder" plug than the AC Delco 41-108 for the 2.0 LNF. Anyone want to chime in ??

[Frank I]

I do not think they make a "colder" plug than the AC Delco 41-108 for the 2.0 LNF. Anyone want to chime in ??

I tried to purchase 41-102's but AC does not list that plug as available any longer.  Every other major manufacture I had checked only makes a plug that cross references to the 41-108.  If anyone does find another plug that cross-references to the AC 41-102 please let us know? 
thanks.


frank I

[birdliver]

AC Parts Direct accepted my order for 102s last week through Amazon, but as I figured after a few days I got an e-mail from Amazon saying only the 108s were now available, so don't be fooled if you still see them listed. I figured as much, but since my car has never had a problem with the 102s I figured I'd stick with them if possible but I've looked around and they just aren't available anywhere that I can find.

[tazz]

It's going to be trial and error now to find plugs that aren't too cold vs ones that aren't too hot. 
Typically as most probably know in most normal run of the mill engines the base engine has a hotter plug and if you add a some sort of Forced induction to the engine you will require a colder plug and as you give it more boost will require and even cooler plug.  2 steps for a mild to moderate boost level up to 4 steps cooler for a higher boost applications.  With that said if only some have had issues with the stock plugs that GM originally put in then GM more than likely just went 1 step hotter.  So if we can find a aftermarket plug that is 1 step colder than what that company calls for then it will probably be OK for stock setups.  For the members with a tune it's probably good to go with 2 steps colder but there it's going to be trial and error as to what brand plugs may or maynot work correctly since plug manufacturers heat rating are not always the same per se. 

[fershy]

What is the cross reference recommended plug in an NGK equivalent? It should be no problem to go to a colder range with NGK if desired.
fershy

[Frank I]

What is the cross reference recommended plug in an NGK equivalent? It should be no problem to go to a colder range with NGK if desired.
fershy

fershy:

You can just go to a parts store and have them cross reference it for you.  AC has changed their numbering system and I do not believe the new number system indicate heat ranges like the old system did?

However, you can still cross reference from one plug manufacture to another.  If they can not cross reference to the AC 41-102 (because it is no longer available), have them cross reference to the AC 41-108 and then tell them you want the new plug (i.e. NGK or other manufacture) one heat range colder.  

[redlinedude]

  After lots of research I have found that the best plugs for the 2.0 LNF is probably the stock AC Delco 41-108. I have read the "other" forums and people have experimented with other plugs and they all seem to go back to the stock ones. The only manufacturers that I have found that are currently making plugs for the 2.0 LNF are: Autolite, Denso, E3, Pulstar and NGK (edit). I searched a website that offers NGK and it said no product found. If anyone knows of any other plugs available i'm all ears. Also, I found this info interesting regarding heat ranges:


  The term spark plug heat range refers to the speed with which the plug can transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the engine head. Whether the plug is to be installed in a boat, lawnmower or racecar, it has been found the optimum combustion chamber temperature for gasoline engines is between 500°C–850°C. When it is within that range it is cool enough to avoid pre-ignition and plug tip overheating (which can cause engine damage), while still hot enough to burn off combustion deposits which cause fouling.

The spark plug can help maintain the optimum combustion chamber temperature. The primary method used to do this is by altering the internal length of the core nose, in addition, the alloy compositions in the electrodes can be changed. This means you may not be able to visually tell a difference between heat ranges. When a spark plug is referred to as a “cold plug”, it is one that transfers heat rapidly from the firing tip into the engine head, which keeps the firing tip cooler. A “hot plug” has a much slower rate of heat transfer, which keeps the firing tip hotter.

An unaltered engine will run within the optimum operating range straight from the manufacturer, but if you make modifications such as a turbo, supercharger, increase compression, timing changes, use of alternate racing fuels, or sustained use of nitrous oxide, these can alter the plug tip temperature and may necessitate a colder plug. A rule of thumb is, one heat range colder per modification or one heat range colder for every 75–100hp you increase. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one full heat range to the next is the ability to remove 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber.

The heat range numbers used by spark plug manufacturers are not universal, by that we mean, a 10 heat range in Champion is not the same as a 10 heat range in NGK nor the same in Autolite. Some manufacturers numbering systems are opposite the other, for domestic manufacturers (Champion, Autolite, Splitfire), the higher the number, the hotter the plug. For Japanese manufacturers (NGK, Denso), the higher the number, the colder the plug.

Do not make spark plug changes at the same time as another engine modification such as injection, carburetion or timing changes as in the event of poor results, it can lead to misleading and inaccurate conclusions (an exception would be when the alternate plugs came as part of a single precalibrated upgrade kit). When making spark plug heat range changes, it is better to err on the side of too cold a plug. The worst thing that can happen from too cold a plug is a fouled spark plug, too hot a spark plug can cause severe engine damage.

[TempeRacerGuy]

What is the cross reference recommended plug in an NGK equivalent? It should be no problem to go to a colder range with NGK if desired.
fershy

NGK lists for the 2007 Redline/GXP their Laser Iridium plug of ILTR6C with a gap of .032-.036 (depending on the source)
NGK lists for the 2007 Cobalt SS their Laser Iridium plug of IFR6V-10G with a gap of .040

So, let's define what the part numbers mean....
I - Iridium Platinum
L - Thread reach 26.5mm
T- Tapered design
R- Resistor design
6 - Heat range (medium range, lower is hotter range is 2-11)
C - Low angle ground electrode

For the cobalt:

I - Iridium Platinum
F - 19mm Reach, 16mm hex
R - resistor
6 - Heat range (note it's the same as the plug listed for the sol/sky redline
V - Fine wire gold plated center electrode
10 - .040 gap
G - Gasket Seat

The differences between the cobalt SS and the Redline/GXP are not in heat range, but in construction. (according to NGK)

If you want to keep the same construction yet get a colder plug, the closest plug is the NGK ILTR5C-11.  However this plug has a gap of .044  (you may need to close the gap this plug if you have boost mis-fire).  Now, before you all jump on me and say "you can't gap iridium plugs"  Let me tell you that you can gap iridium plugs, however the manufacturers tell people NOT to re-gap iridium plugs because they are easily broken.  Here's what  Bosche says about re-gapping iridium plugs:

Should you decide to re-gap your Iridium Power plug, use extreme caution as improper gapping may damage or destroy the Iridium center electrode or porcelain center. To increase the gap size: Step 1 Use needle nose pliers or spark plug gapping tool to bend the ground strap up to the desired height. DO NOT LET THE PLIERS OR GAPPING TOOL TOUCH THE IRIDIUM CENTER ELECTRODE OR PORCELAIN.

The steps to decrese gap is the exact same, just bending the strap to the electrode

Here's my suggestion.   First I am a fan of NGK, so I will use their plugs as an example.

Use the recomended plug of ILTR6C as a starting point.  Do some HIGH BOOST, HARD RUNS.  pull out the plug and inspect.  If there is damage that it's detonating or that the plug is too hot  (pitting, speckling of the ground strap, or an ultra white porcelin), or other signs of detonation (logs or pinging), then swap out to the colder plug.

Install the colder plug (the ILTR5C-11) at the gap they came with and again do some hard, hot, high boost runs.   If there is evidence of a miss under high boost (hesitation, surging and so on), then close the gap till the miss goes away.  The idea for performance is to have the widest gap you can that keeps you from missing.

Now there are some notes here...
Colder plugs foul easier.  Hotter plugs self clean themselves better
Hotter plugs are more likely to cause detonation, but do not foul easily.

The key is to pick the plug that suits your driving best.  Hotter for low boost quick trips around town with a factory tune, colder for a tune with high boost, and those who flog their cars regularly.

Hope that helps all.

[tazz]

/\/\
I agree with everything you've said since I have had for the past 6 yrs forced induction Gen2 Ford that is modified from stock and have seen some of the issues that have been brought up hear.  The one great thing is that in the Gen2 case it's had 10yrs to evolve into what is the best mods plugs and other as to what mods you have and the way you drive.  While the 2.0L LNF engine only has had 3yrs under it's belt for people to tinker with.  What Im saying is that there is alot we don't know yet and things will change a bit as the time goes by and that's just the learning curve.
There's only one area where I might has a slight issue and it's not really you but with the plug manufacturers.  I would agree only probably go with NGK or Denso in the Iridium's and as you stated NGK lists the same heat range plug for the Cobalt SS but Denso actually list a different plug for the Cobalt SS IWK20 which seems to be a colder than the stock plug listed for the GXP ITV16.
Everything else is correct you have to choose a plug that suits your driving style and mods Period.  In my case even in my Ford I'm in boost quite often and therefore I need to run a colder plug just for that reason and is probably why my GXP doesn't have the problems with thecolder plug where as some do with the stock colder plug.  Also As in the near future I will be getting a tune I will want that extra cushion of the colder plug since I do run my car hard. 
Yes you can gap a iridium or similar fine wire plug but for most they aren't for lack of a better word capable of doing it correctly and even if they do they could possibly change the angle of the center electrode so it's not horizontal to the center electrode let alone the chance of breaking the center electrode if touched.  That reason stated is why most say not to even attempt to gap the fine wire plugs.

[TempeRacerGuy]

Denso actually list a different plug for the Cobalt SS IWK20 which seems to be a colder than the stock plug listed for the GXP ITV16.

The main thing I was trying to post here, was that the Cobalt SS uses a different construction plug than the GXP/Redline...  So, I would not just throw a set of cobalt SS plugs in the redline and expect you to be good to go.

[tazz]

Gotcha.
Totally agree.

[Imaj]

I was always told the copper plugs work the best with turbo's. Granted every 10,000 miles you needed to replace them. No copper plug love?

[TempeRacerGuy]

iridium>copper>Platinum

[lil goat]

Please let us know what you guys find out with your experiments, I think the Direct Injection really changes the rules a bit so I am sticking with the stock plugs until you guys figure out there is something better. Mine are still the factory ones, the colder ones until I see a reason to change.

[sol_man]

 

Especially with the Pulstar issue I had!  I'm very leary of having anything else melt inside the motor!