Topic: REAL intercooler results

[snaponbob]

My Redline is still stock (engine anyway) except for K&N filter and MF exhaust. But soon it will have a catless downpipe and Wester's tune. The question I have is who has done before/after dyno runs (same conditions, etc.) on a given tune w/o and then with a intercooler swap? Given the substantial increases of HP and torque that a tune, downpipe, and free flow exhaust already provide I am simply concerned with return on investment. Please, no guess work. Some vendors jump up and down about pipes and I/Cs while some others say they have seen only marginal increases. Just looking for hard results.

[LatinVenom]

I know I may get some comments on my view, here it goes.
As long as you are not going to go beyond 350 BHP, is not a good return on investment.

[lil goat]

I can give you some pretty hard results. Not exact but close. At one point in time my car and Go-N Def's car were set up the same except for the intercooler, we both had a Wester's tune an earlier one, both had the Solo Street Race exhaust. I had a Dejon intercooler and his was stock. We both dyno'd our cars on the same day back to back. I dyno'd 10rwhp better than Go N def did and my torque came on earlier in the range. I will say that many of the benefits can not be seen on a dyno, the car runs much cooler, not the water temperature the charge temperature. The car will not heat soak as fast and after you run the car hard it will not retard the timing do to elevated charge temperatures. If you do not think that a good intercooler has benefits, you don't understand what they do. I upgraded mine because Lyndon Wester put our stock one on a flow bench and told me it was junk. He had issues with the charge temperature getting so hot when he was tuning he had to stop and wait for the car to cool down, after only 2 or three dyno runs. You could best see the added benefit of the intercooler in the oil temperature if we had an oil temp gauge. By the way Lyndon Wester runs a Dejon intercooler on his GXP. Now those are real world facts, based on the GXP and my experience and Lyndon's. Not on reading someone else's post or theory.When I attend events MANY can a test to how easily I can light up the back tires on my car, and drift corners. The intercooler increases low end torque a lot, that has been said by everyone who has installed one. I am sorry but saying the car will only benefit at over 350 HP is just crap, our factory intercoolers are a very poor and cheap design. By the way my car is at over 350 BHP with the Wester;s tune and Solo exhaust.

[snaponbob]

Wow ------ I went to a gang fight and a hockey came broke out.   

My concerns are what benefit will be seen in an autocross environment. Having seen the torque and horsepower curves for ecm "tuned" cars there is a bunch of available torque. To that end I have even discussed REDUCING (for me) the torque surge at 3000 RPM. Over a 45-60 second run I wonder about the benefit of an I/C. That's all. This all a matter of value for money or ROI (return on investment) at the start of the Solo season. Ultimately, I certainly WILL have a bigger I/C and the associated pipes. WHEN is the question at hand.

There really is a small data base on 2.0 Kappas (in Solo trim) in Stock class, and even less in Street Prepared (only one so far) and REAL sharing of information in the Kappa Solo community has been, ummmm errrrrrrrrr, "modest". Plenty of "data" to back that up, but my intent is not to throw people under the bus. Chassis development is pretty straight forward and I have that under control (HA !!!!!! Right). Power development becomes very emotional so my efforts are to work through that without wasting my money. The input I have received HAS been beneficial, and I want more from end users. Having spoken with multiple vendors and reading threads on the Kappa forums I have only discovered ONE thing - LACK of consensus. One thing for sure - whatever I learn will be readily available.

[baconbits]

I have a buddy who built over the years many turbo and supercharged drag motorcycles  ..when I asked him how would he get more balls out of this car he said ..a tune.. an exhaust system.. and a more efficent intercooler.. as your read above.. his exact words were it  should provide better bottom end torque  again I don't have any hard data to go by ..just repeating his thoughts..
Bacon

[lil goat]

All I can say is my statements are from PERSONAL experience, not based on what some one else posted or some vendor said. From and AutoX perspective, the intercooler drops the peak torque about 500 rpm as well as increasing it, I can say it feels as thought the torque comes on smoother. I know from a running the twisties perspective after the intercooler and tune it was mush easier to stay in the power. The transition from unboosted to boosted is smoother and you don't feel that sudden jump in torque. I know a lot of this is due to the tune, but Lyndon does set up a tune differently if you have a larger intercooler or not. He has 28 different tunes for the GXP, depending on mods at last count. Lyndon and I have been friends longer than the Solstice has been in existence he builds race cars and bikes for a living, he does not sell intercoolers so when he tests one ( and he is the only person I know with a flow bench to actually test and intercooler out of the car ) and says it works or doesn't it carries a lot of weight with me.

[Go-N Def]

Much as I hate to ( ), I have to back up the Goat on this one.  I was there.   

The exhaust can change things too.  DBG and I did back to back dynos a few month before that.  Mine was completely stock at the time and he had a magna flow.  I had about 5-6 HP more...


 

[lil goat]

I know how much that pained you Def, our fearless leader DBG was there as well. Many don't know that Def, DBG, and Spikey and me had a ton of Wester's tunes before the one he now sells as the Race tune, we were the guinea pigs, we had just enough differences between our cars to give Lyndon data on how different mods effected the cars performance, Brendlan had the very first Auto GXP Lyndon tuned, and he actually did it hands on in the shop on the dyno. After that Spikey pretty much did all the testing of the tune for the Auto. We all made quite a few trips to the dyno. Not all of Lyndon's first tunes were great, we had one I remeber that was so rich it made my eyes teare, then there was the lean one that made the car sound like you were making popcorn when you backed off the power. Lyndon spent 1000's of hours developing his tune and collected data from a lot of cars.

[duckSol]

I have to agree with the positive comments about the IC. My stock one came back here in a box with me in SLY this week and is in the shop. The new one runs on average 2 degrees above ambient. Low end torque when under spool from 5psi is evil.
I am sure the tune and intake made a difference and I do wish we could have had dyno for each addition but the knowledge base is proven over the years.
I have a before, done prior to November 5 w/o a professional tune and with Dejon CAI and will go for an after November 22 since we did not get SLY on a Dyno after some fine tuning this week.

[spicy3480]

I will agree with lil goat also.  I have felt more power on the top end also with the upgraded intercooler.  As long as it is efficient, and doesnt have a huge pressure loss across the intercooler, you will get more power from the cooler charge it provides.

[LatinVenom]

The problem with the above statements although valid, the question was is it a good return on investment.
Well that depends....
I have always stated from the very beginning you spend your money where you gain the most, and that is the tune.
Whether is Westers, GMPP, or some of the other vendors tune, that is a good return on investment.
The rest of the modifications for the 2.0 Turbo is really more of a personal preference.
The factory stuff is pretty good up to a point. That threshold is about 330 - 340 BHP. This is just not me typing but proven by GM on the race track.
Understand I am not trying to put down any of the other mods,(I think l'l goat thinks that I am) but when you look at dollars vs the return on investment, the very 1st one and the one that really makes a BIG difference is the TUNE.
 

[snaponbob]

LV, you have zeroed in on the question at hand. All the other input is valuable. I have decided on the Wester's tune (for a LOT of reasons, which is NOT to say that any others were not good/vaible) so will have plenty of power available. I have even asked Lyndon about softening the torque curve around 3000 rpm as it may be TOO much in autocross use !!!!! Straight line is far different than transitioning out of corners. Even Hoosier A6s have their limits !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At some point I will have an intercooler upgrade - sooner OR later. As the turbo can only do so much work I am only questioning the TANGIBLE benefits over a 60 period of hard use. The I/C can be cooled between runs with a garden sprayer (VERY common piece of equipment at Solo events). I would love to see some before/after charts with an I/C change.

[MGar]

A larger intercooler will make a difference on the autocross, but probably not much.  An intercooler also acts as a heatsink, so a larger mass will take more energy before it is fully heatsoaked- it'll stay colder, longer.
The Dejon piece is significantly larger than the stock piece, in mass and size, so it will take more before it's done.

[lil goat]

I have watched many a Drift Race, not autoX but they are only on the track a brief time for each run. When they come back to the staging area they spray the intercooler with Nitrous Oxide, a few of the smaller teams use ice water. When Gardella set up there Solstice they used a stock GXP for the most part, the only thing they changed was the intercooler and exhaust, they used a Hahn intercooler mounted horizonally with 3 fans on it. The GMPP tune they were running was 335 hp according to the tuner from GM and it ran on race gas. How does this apply to autoX. I don't know, I just think the factory intercooler is a piece of crap. I know that BTF has said the factory intercooler is fine up to 350, well think about this if he told you you needed to buy and intercooler that would double the cost of installing his upgrade now wouldn't it, that is called marketing folks. I have never seen anywhere that GM has tested there intercooler at all, much less with something other than a stock tune, except on Setup and that was with the GMPP tune, Lyndon is pulling a lot more power.
I will say having Lyndon make the torque around 3000 a bit softer might not be a bad idea, with his tune the torque comes on much smoother than stock and there is far less lag but peak torque, at least with the Dejon intercooler is about 3300, and is up around 320 lb/ft that is a full 80 lb/ft more than stock. I have gotten used to it and I think the car handles much better than stock just from the tune and is so much more predictable because the boost is very smooth and seemless.