Topic: Help! Running rich after New GT 2871 and DDM tune

[miller11386]

Car Running Rich and has Code P2195 Also threw P0106 about an hour and a half on my way home from the shop.

Just got a new turbo upgrade and it ran home great from SC. 27 PSI boost and tons of power. Threw a P0106 code and called Dave. He said it was nothing to worry about, and after a few key cycles, the SES light went out. AFR at idle was in the mid 14's. I was getting a healthy 12 AFR on WOT

Now I got home and drove the sky to work, and it ran rich the whole way up (50 miles) AFR was in the mid 12's at idle. At WOT the AFR was dipping to the 11's and sometimes into the 10's... only did one WOT pull as the fuel grenaded in the exhaust and freaked me out a bit.

Threw a code P2195 Sensor stuck lean on the way home from work. Car was running rich the whole time. I cleared the codes at Advance, and the AFR went back to normal (14's at idle). However when I drove to work the next day, it was back to its rich self (12's at idle). I ordered a new Pre-cat O2 sensor, and I had to wait until Thursday to get it. I checked all hoses and clamps, everything seems in tact. No vac/boost leaks I could find. I am also still getting 20 in. hg of vacuum. So I think I have it narrowed down to the O2 sensor. HAHA not! Replace the O2 and it still does the same thing. Runs fine for a while, then runs rich

Pulled the MAP sensor... it was clean. Checked the MAF and it has some oil on it. I cleaned it up and replaced it. However without a P0101 or P0100 I am not thinking it would be the MAF. (Right?)

Unhooked battery cable while I worked on the O2 sensor re-install. Hooked up after to now have a clean ECU.

I drove it around and the AFR was jumpy. AFR was not nearly as smooth, and kept bouncing around from 13.2 to 14's. Then I did a nice long pull at WOT

Not only did I get the P0106 code again,  but the AFR dipped into the 10's . I started a thread on skyroadster, and have been trouble shooting that way, but its really difficult w.o a HP tuner interface or ability to data log.

If you have any other thoughts or suggestions, please let me know! I really wanted to run with the NEO group this weekend, but it is impossible with how the car is running at the present moment  i have a feeling I will be biting the bullet and getting an interface here soon 

[Arabas]

Hey Miller, is it possible to make a trip back to DDM to get your tune checked?
i believe that you will get the most help from DDM to solve this problem.
P0106 sometimes shows up in even stock turbo tuned GTs, but there is a way to prevent it from false showing up (Vince has corrected more than one of the kappas he tunes that showed the code) . i bet every tuner can

but for the rich situation, call DDM to see what he has to tell you

[Kelu]

1) Try to borrow a HPT for some strong detailed logs

2) I would vote for the O2 sensor too but since you already replaced it sounds like a leak to me

3) Did you talked with DDM? They are one of the wizards of these cars who I always asked when I couldn't find answers

I have P0106 from time to time also, I delete it and stays off for another 3-6 months.

P.S. I'm not an expert when comes to debug engine issues, I just use common sense

[Critterman]

Better rich than lean, gas is inexpensive compared to the alternative.  Work with Dave on this.  You need to find someone who has HPTuners in your area and buy they credits if you need to for your car.  Data logs and lot's of them is the only way to find and fix the problem.

I know from experience.

[miller11386]

Do I have to buy credits even though DDM used HP Tuners to unlock my ECU? Or can I buy/borrow a tuner interface and use it without more credits?

And unfortunately I cant just run back to DDM ... they are 600 miles away.

I am strongly considering getting the HPT interface myself because I really should have one to trouble shoot problems

[SHiNY]

Well, well, well, look who finally decided to join the party!

[miller11386]

btw dave is not going to be availible probably. I know he had an event at the dragon he was going to attend. So I am just trying to get some ideas during this downtime

And yes Shiny thx for noticing!

[Critterman]

The credits are for the computer they are being used on.  So yes you would have to buy credits.  I bought it, used it often in the beginning and now once or twice a year. 

Dave is at the Mini event this weekend, so is Elff so you might be able to relay info to him through Elff, he was on line this morning.  If I remember correctly they don't have cell service or at least good cell service.

[miller11386]

Yeah from the looks of it w.o some decent logs to see what is happening, I am up a creek without a paddle.

maybe I will have to splurge and get myself an HP tuner

[Critterman]

See if you can get a used copy from someone, you only need 2 credits for one car, six for a year/series.

You can't even clear the fuel tables at the moment which will help you get everything back in line.

do you have anything to read your PID's with, dashhawk, UltraGause?

[miller11386]

only way I have been pulling codes has been annoying the advance auto ppl to pull them for me

[SKY888]

once you have HPT....and do some logs........you can send it to DDM, so they can send you a revised tune, to solve your issues.

good luck

[miller11386]

and that is why i paid them to tune it... so i didnt need to buy HPT

[SKY888]

and that is why i paid them to tune it... so i didnt need to buy HPT

once you start modifying your engine....especially having a higher flowing turbo...........you'll need a data logger like HPT

you gotta pay....to play

[SKY888]

there's always something that shows up.........once you modify your engine.

having the HPT is very useful.

tuning a modified engine.....sometimes.....needs some tweaking here and there.

[Critterman]

Not quite that simple.  You tune it, you drive it and you tune it again, until all the gremlins are out.  Sometimes everything works out the first time, but with our 'smart' computers you set everything and then drive the car, it decides it should be set differently and proceeds to to it.  Things then get out of whack it tries to bring them back in line.  Next thing you know you are screwing the pooch and starting all over.

[DeepBlueGXP]

Car Running Rich and has Code P2195 Also threw P0106 about an hour and a half on my way home from the shop.

Just got a new turbo upgrade and it ran home great from SC. 27 PSI boost and tons of power. Threw a P0106 code and called Dave. He said it was nothing to worry about, and after a few key cycles, the SES light went out. AFR at idle was in the mid 14's. I was getting a healthy 12 AFR on WOT

Now I got home and drove the sky to work, and it ran rich the whole way up (50 miles) AFR was in the mid 12's at idle. At WOT the AFR was dipping to the 11's and sometimes into the 10's... only did one WOT pull as the fuel grenaded in the exhaust and freaked me out a bit.

Threw a code P2195 Sensor stuck lean on the way home from work. Car was running rich the whole time. I cleared the codes at Advance, and the AFR went back to normal (14's at idle). However when I drove to work the next day, it was back to its rich self (12's at idle). I ordered a new Pre-cat O2 sensor, and I had to wait until Thursday to get it. I checked all hoses and clamps, everything seems in tact. No vac/boost leaks I could find. I am also still getting 20 in. hg of vacuum. So I think I have it narrowed down to the O2 sensor. HAHA not! Replace the O2 and it still does the same thing. Runs fine for a while, then runs rich

Pulled the MAP sensor... it was clean. Checked the MAF and it has some oil on it. I cleaned it up and replaced it. However without a P0101 or P0100 I am not thinking it would be the MAF. (Right?)

Unhooked battery cable while I worked on the O2 sensor re-install. Hooked up after to now have a clean ECU.

I drove it around and the AFR was jumpy. AFR was not nearly as smooth, and kept bouncing around from 13.2 to 14's. Then I did a nice long pull at WOT

Not only did I get the P0106 code again,  but the AFR dipped into the 10's . I started a thread on skyroadster, and have been trouble shooting that way, but its really difficult w.o a HP tuner interface or ability to data log.

If you have any other thoughts or suggestions, please let me know! I really wanted to run with the NEO group this weekend, but it is impossible with how the car is running at the present moment  i have a feeling I will be biting the bullet and getting an interface here soon 

Bouncing around mixture is normal, these care make hundreds of adjustments a second.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  The higher the ratio, the richer the mixture.  So running in the 14's would rich and in the below 11 lean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

My AFR on a dyno started out 14s and went down to the 11s at high RPM

[tazz]

Bouncing around mixture is normal, these care make hundreds of adjustments a second.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  The higher the ratio, the richer the mixture.  So running in the 14's would rich and in the below 11 lean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

My AFR on a dyno started out 14s and went down to the 11s at high RPM

14's is lean and 11's are richer and as you go WOT you want the AF ratio to be richer instead of lean so you want a lower number but not too low.

[Critterman]

14.7 is considered perfect, in the 12's is where you get your best power.
11's is a safe WOT

UNLESS

you have a DI engine, then you move everything up a couple of notches.  16's are the norm,  14 good at WOT

[tazz]

?????  
Maybe Im missing something here but I don't thinl so.
The first part of the statement is correct but the statement for DI's is not totally correct.
Even with DI's on my GXP Lyndon has mine set at .81 Lambda or 11.9AFR @ WOT.
Yes it does bounce once you come off acel or go into DFCO but at idle it's about 14.4-14.9.
There are however more tables that control AFR and after a sustained high speed run can even go lower than 11.9AFR in the high 10's once over 125mph if I recall correctly.
Yes DI's do run leaner when compared to other engines but they still can't run too lean when under WOT.
Pic of my Current Wester's Power Enrichment vs GMPP tune Power Enrichment.

[SKY888]

you have a DI engine, then you move everything up a couple of notches.  16's are the norm,  14 good at WOT

14 AFR at WOT?    That's very lean.....

I'll be around 12 AFR at WOT.

[miller11386]

From what I have seen others do, 12.5 AFR is a strong WOT ratio.

14.7 is what my car would sit at during idle... pretty dead flat +/- .2 on the gauge (pre tune)

Now even if the car is warm and just sitting at idle, it bounces from 12.5 to 13.2. Hence my "running rich" statement.

I also noticed that it idles a bit high and rough when teh engine is unloaded. the car is floating from 750RPM to 1k RPM at idle. It runs especially rough at 1k RPM...

Still looking for someone in my area to have an interface to log what is going on.

[shabby]

Even with DI's on my GXP Lyndon has mine set at .81 Lambda or 11.9AFR @ WOT.

That's too rich, stock afr is fine or even leaner with e85.

[Sol Asylum]

Are you getting black smoke out of the tail pipe?

I suspect that you are actually running lean and that you have an intake leak but that is just a guess.

[tazz]

I would talk to DDM but could be your MAF Frequency needs to be slightly adjusted?  I know when I had my Catless DP on Lyndon had to adjust the MAF table more due to my AF's bouncing all over the place at idle and skewing my FT's.