Author Topic: Koni dampers  (Read 24159 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wspohn

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Karma: +1/-4
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 11:22:01 AM »
I agree with Bob on the front toe. Zero does it for me.
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
1958 MGA Twincam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
Recently sold:
1969 MGC roadster,
1965 Jensen CV8,
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
Bill in BC

Offline snaponbob

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 3655
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 02:45:59 PM »
Understood, but I have the Solstice Performance book in front of me. Page 88 lower left corner (Definition Basics) is where I gleaned that info. I could not see the Service Bulletin referring to race alignment, but I am aware of what it says. That said, on page 16, there is a section that says Performance Tips, and the alignment specs come after the statement that these are suggestions to us to "get started". Over 5 years, a lot has been learned about what the platform likes. On pages 90-91 there are captions for each picture, and they do reference front and rear toe IN, front camber 2.5, rear 1.8, and all running Hoosiers. Street tire will benefit from the same settings although pressures would be different. Rear toe in will help keep the rear from "roll steering" as much as with zero toe, and front toe in will soften turn in, thus inducing a bit of push there as well. Solo or track, similar adjustments will net similar results, but at higher speeds, one should make smaller adjustments. 
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline cbr6

  • Tech
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: +0/-2
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2011, 10:36:36 PM »
  Had friday off from work and installed the koni sa/ z0k gxp set up, took about 3 hours including bathroom break and a coke then red bull break. ( whens it going to cool off ) set dampers at 1 turn from soft feels real nice so far. Car seems to have lost the pitchy floaty feel it would have sometimes. Still rides well, I like the less squat on acceleration from a light. Measured car before and after, it's an inch lower around all four corners. i'll see how it feels on the drive to VIR all week and make some adjustments to the dampers and see how it feels. May let are company "Stig"  take it for a rip or two to get him over the GM hatting....lol

Offline kennysabarese

  • "The Professor"
  • Premium Member
  • Gearhead
  • *
  • Posts: 3809
  • Karma: +0/-5
  • Make or take?
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2011, 11:02:52 AM »
cool. i'd love to have someone really push my car a bit to see what they think about the setup
2007 Sky Redline - Wester's Tuned - GMPP sensors - RMR Roll Bar - Kirkey Seats
Schroth Harnesses - SSR Wheels - Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs - Complete Mod List
kennysabarese.com - Photos - Facebook - Twitter - RSS

Offline Gentleman Jack

  • Chief Financial Officer, Color Professional
  • Premium Member
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8982
  • Karma: +26/-82
  • I'm here. If I wasn't here, I'd be there.
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2011, 01:31:03 AM »
I've a set of stock GXP springs with only 10,000 miles on them. Sitting in a box in my garage.

I have a banana in my fridge with some brown spots on it. 
Make the right choices now

Offline Sol Asylum

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 10387
  • Karma: +41/-66
  • My car identifies as transportation
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2011, 12:49:36 PM »
I have a banana in my fridge with some brown spots on it. 
Of course you do, you have a monkey as your avatar.
2007 Aggressive GXP

Offline Gentleman Jack

  • Chief Financial Officer, Color Professional
  • Premium Member
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8982
  • Karma: +26/-82
  • I'm here. If I wasn't here, I'd be there.
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2011, 12:57:29 PM »
Actually, SA, it is a week old Silver Leaf Langur.  This is his Dad...

Make the right choices now

Offline Gentleman Jack

  • Chief Financial Officer, Color Professional
  • Premium Member
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8982
  • Karma: +26/-82
  • I'm here. If I wasn't here, I'd be there.
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2011, 12:59:42 PM »
Hold the farm here people.... this thread is supposed to be about Koni dampers...  Could we please get back on track? 

Koni.... last relevant post:

Quote
Had friday off from work and installed the koni sa/ z0k gxp set up, took about 3 hours including bathroom break and a coke then red bull break. ( whens it going to cool off ) set dampers at 1 turn from soft feels real nice so far. Car seems to have lost the pitchy floaty feel it would have sometimes. Still rides well, I like the less squat on acceleration from a light. Measured car before and after, it's an inch lower around all four corners. i'll see how it feels on the drive to VIR all week and make some adjustments to the dampers and see how it feels. May let are company "Stig"  take it for a rip or two to get him over the GM hatting....lol

Make the right choices now

Offline Critterman

  • Retired, thank you very much
  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 13725
  • Karma: +18/-58
  • Baltimore/Washington Corridor
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2011, 01:09:03 PM »
Is he a proud papa smoking a cigarette?
GONE: (but not forgotten) 2006 Cool named IXABEL (BISH-AH-BEL) Mayan for "Good Roads"
DDM StageIII intercooled Supercharger, Wisco ceramic coated pistons, Carrillo rods, superTech valves and Springs, Ported and polished head, Exedy Stage II Clutch,
big brake kit, slotted/drilled Rotors w/Porterfield pads & blue juice, Backbone, Probeam, Cross Strut Brace Underhood, trunk, & door Lights, ZOK suspension
JPM Center console, door inserts, & dash Seat bolster & lumbar support
Focuztech Tri-Y Header & hi-flow cat, Solo Performance SQR-2, Norm's Rear facia, Heated Seats, Blackface gau

Offline Sol Asylum

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 10387
  • Karma: +41/-66
  • My car identifies as transportation
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2011, 01:36:11 PM »
Is he a proud papa smoking a cigarette?
Who?  This Koni guy GJ keeps babbling about?
2007 Aggressive GXP

Offline elff

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11381
  • Karma: +26/-58
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2011, 10:17:39 AM »
I ordered some ZOK springs.
Not sure why everyone else is having issues.  I keep getting my Crate Engine Depot orders in 3 days.
They are awesome.

The Koni's don't match well with the height of the GMPP springs. I was having trouble getting them dialed in.   So hopefully this will put me on par with everyone else, lower the kappa a little for an agressive stance and improve the handling more.

Offline snaponbob

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 3655
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2011, 10:41:50 AM »

The Koni's don't match well with the height of the GMPP springs. I was having trouble getting them dialed in.   

They don't??? What is the issue?
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline elff

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11381
  • Karma: +26/-58
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2011, 11:54:24 AM »
the gmpp springs are basically the same height as the stock springs.  They mounted at a slightly different location on the koni's then the bilsteins.  It's hard to describe almost like the car diagnolly was not cycling well.   Could be an alignment issue right now, but my car is now in the body shop, so I can't do anything with it.
I'd like to get the car slightly lower anyway and there is lots of good feedback on the ZOK springs with the Koni's so I am not going to sweat it. I got into this whole spring/shock swapping thing kiind of impromptu due to a set of springs arriving at my house that I wasn't expecting.   I'm just going to put them on with the new brake kit, LV brace get it re-aligned and I should be in good shape.

Offline kennysabarese

  • "The Professor"
  • Premium Member
  • Gearhead
  • *
  • Posts: 3809
  • Karma: +0/-5
  • Make or take?
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2011, 05:00:45 PM »
If you went back to stock height springs then yes your alignment would be seriously off and the car wouldn't handle right. Nothing to do with them not matching each other.
2007 Sky Redline - Wester's Tuned - GMPP sensors - RMR Roll Bar - Kirkey Seats
Schroth Harnesses - SSR Wheels - Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs - Complete Mod List
kennysabarese.com - Photos - Facebook - Twitter - RSS

Offline wspohn

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Karma: +1/-4
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2011, 05:07:58 PM »
If you went back to stock height springs then yes your alignment would be seriously off and the car wouldn't handle right. Nothing to do with them not matching each other.

Let's see if I am getting this right.

You are saying that the spring perches on the Konis are higher up than on the stock shocks, and that a stock or GMPP spring (either way, same length) are going to raise the car up past the stock ride height (the stiffer GMPP springs by more than the stock ones will)?

I wasn't aware that the perches weren't at the same height as the stock shocks.

Having been a racer for decades, the choice for me was very easy - by buying the BC Racing shocks, I got adjustable spring perches, which allowed me not only to adjust ride heioght, but also to corner weight the car.  Not sure what you guys pay for the non-adjustable Konis, but the BCR shocks cost right around $1,000 for the set of 4.
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
1958 MGA Twincam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
Recently sold:
1969 MGC roadster,
1965 Jensen CV8,
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
Bill in BC

Offline kennysabarese

  • "The Professor"
  • Premium Member
  • Gearhead
  • *
  • Posts: 3809
  • Karma: +0/-5
  • Make or take?
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2011, 05:10:39 PM »
Let's see if I am getting this right.

You are saying that the spring perches on the Konis are higher up than on the stock shocks, and that a stock or GMPP spring (either way, same length) are going to raise the car up past the stock ride height (the stiffer GMPP springs by more than the stock ones will)?

I wasn't aware that the perches weren't at the same height as the stock shocks.

No, he had Koni + Eichbach lowering springs. Got an alignment.

Then put GMPP springs on the Konis. Didn't get an alignment.

So he's back to a ride height near stock, but didn't get an alignment so it makes sense that the car is handling strangely.
2007 Sky Redline - Wester's Tuned - GMPP sensors - RMR Roll Bar - Kirkey Seats
Schroth Harnesses - SSR Wheels - Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs - Complete Mod List
kennysabarese.com - Photos - Facebook - Twitter - RSS

Offline Gentleman Jack

  • Chief Financial Officer, Color Professional
  • Premium Member
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8982
  • Karma: +26/-82
  • I'm here. If I wasn't here, I'd be there.
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »
the gmpp springs are basically the same height as the stock springs.  They mounted at a slightly different location on the koni's then the bilsteins.  It's hard to describe almost like the car diagnolly was not cycling well.   Could be an alignment issue right now, but my car is now in the body shop, so I can't do anything with it.
I'd like to get the car slightly lower anyway and there is lots of good feedback on the ZOK springs with the Koni's so I am not going to sweat it. I got into this whole spring/shock swapping thing kiind of impromptu due to a set of springs arriving at my house that I wasn't expecting.   I'm just going to put them on with the new brake kit, LV brace get it re-aligned and I should be in good shape.


yeah, sorry to cause you grief... :)

damn springs... I think I'm just going to cut mine in half to get the ride height I'm looking for....  maybe just flip them over?

You should try mounting the longer ones in the front this time...

GJ
the good news bad news guy
Make the right choices now

Offline wspohn

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Karma: +1/-4
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2011, 05:15:58 PM »
Then put GMPP springs on the Konis. Didn't get an alignment.

So he's back to a ride height near stock, but didn't get an alignment so it makes sense that the car is handling strangely.


Got it - not sure how much toe change the height difference makes, but it can certainly introduce significant bump steer on some suspensions, and even without that, the incorrect toe setting will make a difference.
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
1958 MGA Twincam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
Recently sold:
1969 MGC roadster,
1965 Jensen CV8,
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
Bill in BC

Offline elff

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11381
  • Karma: +26/-58
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2011, 06:52:28 PM »
Wrong
Wrong
and
Wrong

I never got an alignment after installing the Eibachs.  The rears didn't seem as stiff as the GMPP ones and I found out that the fronts are almost the same, but for some reason, Eibach makes the NA rear springs less stiff.   On the redlines and GXPs that is opposite of how it comes from the factory.  I confirmed the numbers with Eibach and compared them to the spreadsheet that is uploaded in GJ's thread and I believe one other thread.
As a result of the lower height and softer springs, I bottomed out twice and I was scraping really bad when I went down the driveway.  The Eibachs lower the car 1.6".
That's too much and even worse with what I consider incorrect spring rates for our cars.
So I removed them and decided to try out the GMPP springs on the koni shocks to save a little cash.  The GMPP springs have the same spring rates as the ZOK springs, but a higher check height, so they are taller. 
It was worth a test. 
While installing them, [I had to remove the springs from the Bilsteins] I noticed the perches were slightly off.  I can't remember if they were higher or lower, but they were different. 
So now the height of the car was basically back to what it was but the springs sit a little different.   The first couple of days I didn't really notice the cycling and was playing with settings.  I didn't think I would need an alignment at this point, but was going to drive for a week or two to decide if I liked this setup and if I needed an alignment
Before I got a chance to get aligned and fully dialed in, I get rear ended. 

So like I admitted, probably alignment related before the accident

Definitely alignment after the accident

But as I also stated above, I still wanted to lower the car just a little

So I will do what I stated above and I am sure everything will be awesome.

Car is at body shop being repaired.  Can't do anything now.
Have last 4wheel Comp in 10 days, even if car is back by then, will need to work on jeep
go on vacation the following week.
Have Kappa run on August 27th

So it's going to be september before I can do anything. 

In Summary
Lots of stuff to refer to above.
But most stuff is above elves.

Hope that explains it.

Offline snaponbob

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 3655
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2011, 10:10:05 PM »
elff, the GMPP springs were done before the FE3 hit the market. They are basically the same rates as FE3 springs, but shorter. Eibachs were developed of of the FE2 springs. As far as I have seen since I bought my Redline in October 2006, the ONLY "replacement" springs (not straight wound "racing" springs) for the FE3's that were stiffer were/are the GXP/Z0K springs which are 18-20% stiffer than FE3 rates and somewhat shorter.

HTH some.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline elff

  • Premium Member
  • General Manager
  • *
  • Posts: 11381
  • Karma: +26/-58
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2011, 10:27:59 PM »
I am going to disagree.  I got my information from Flashes owner.
In the following post he lists every shock and spring.

http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f74/suspension-package-usage-32364/
Attached is the spreadsheet from that post

Notice how the both the LNF ZOK and GMPP Front springs are 37 N/M and the rears of both are 50 N/M
The only difference is the check heights IE: GMPP springs are taller but same spring rates front and rear

Also notice how the rear springs are stiffer for every iteration of our cars.

Eibach has their rear springs softer not stiffer which is why I removed them.  I really felt it.



Offline Gentleman Jack

  • Chief Financial Officer, Color Professional
  • Premium Member
  • Shop Foreman
  • *
  • Posts: 8982
  • Karma: +26/-82
  • I'm here. If I wasn't here, I'd be there.
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2011, 10:37:24 PM »
additionally, as stated above, the Eibachs in question are NOT for the GXP.  I do not know how different, if at all, the GXP / RL specific Eibachs are.  If interested, contact Eibach.

GJ
Make the right choices now

Offline snaponbob

  • Gearhead
  • ****
  • Posts: 3655
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2011, 12:04:11 AM »
I am going to disagree.  I got my information from Flashes owner.
In the following post he lists every shock and spring.

http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f74/suspension-package-usage-32364/
Attached is the spreadsheet from that post

Notice how the both the LNF ZOK and GMPP Front springs are 37 N/M and the rears of both are 50 N/M
The only difference is the check heights IE: GMPP springs are taller but same spring rates front and rear

Also notice how the rear springs are stiffer for every iteration of our cars.

Eibach has their rear springs softer not stiffer which is why I removed them.  I really felt it.


Somewhere along the line there may have been a change to the GMPP springs, and after I changed Solo classes, I stopped paying attention. The original GMPP package also predated GXP and Redline sales and were almost identical to the FE3 spring rates, but shorter, and they were often confused for the 2.4 Solstice Z0K set up. But, good info nevertheless.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline cbr6

  • Tech
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: +0/-2
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2011, 08:46:45 PM »
  After installing the Z0K GXP spring/Koni SA set up:  Koni and Belstien same spring seat to lower mount and same overall length assembled. Lowered car 1.1 inch at all 4 corners. 1 turn towards firm at all 4 corners, feels sooo good. Still going to play with rebound to see the affects but it's great at 1 turn. Ride quality is still very nice and the added rebound makes a great improvment to spirited driving. Also have Z0K GXP bars front and rear. Will probably play on the skid pad at VIR next week end after the race day at work. Oh before Z0K/ Koni swap car was 2977lbs with 52% front weight and 50%/50% side to side.

Offline DrJones

  • Master Tech
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koni dampers
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2011, 06:42:53 AM »
also make sure you have the dampers in the correct position on the car.
the front and rear have different housing lengths.

not sure what's been said in this thread (just kind of breezed through it, sorry!). But i'd suggest some adjustable coilover sleeves.

My set-up is Koni's that have been converted from Single Adjustable to Double Adjustable (first set off the boat from Holland thanks to Lee Grimes back in '07)

Note the Single adjustables should only adjust the rebound damping and not the compression.
2007 - GXP - White
F-Prepared - Crazy Monkey Racing
Westers Garage/Norms Fiberglass/AVON TYRES