Author Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?  (Read 123533 times)

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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 06:41:01 PM »
I would like to know where the logic is that if the rail pump can not keep the rail filled, how can it keep a BIGGER rail filled?
Bob Buxbaum
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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 08:51:04 PM »
It would be a bandaid. It would not solve the problem, only bandaid the issue. It would just take longer for the limp mode to kick in. and you could get a bit more time.

You are correct in saying it wont solve the problem, but it would help if you just wanted to do drag.racing or a single dyno pull

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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2011, 03:01:26 PM »
I would like to know where the logic is that if the rail pump can not keep the rail filled, how can it keep a BIGGER rail filled?

First off, my suggestion was not for the rail pump, if that is the HPFP.  Increasing the line to the injectors is not what I was suggesting.  I have been refering to the lines from the tank to the HPFP.  Different math / theory works on an open ended pipe (injectors) vs a closed end pipe (tank to HPFP). Second, there is acutally no way for the rail line to not be full unless there is a problem with the pump, otherwise you could not be running 2900 PSI.  That's not to say it can keep up with what you want the spray out of the injectors, but there is now way for air to get in that pipe without a problem in the pump.  If you believe you have "empty" space in the lines from the HPFP to the injectors you should look for breaks in the line or problems with your pump.  Have you thought about how a slightly lower pressure, but an increased volume of fuel to the injectors would work?  If you could push 20% more fuel at 2500PSI, vs 2900 psi would that solve your problems? 

Now back to the tank pump to the HPFP.
The logic in in the mathematics.  Just because a pump can not squeeze fuel in thru a small line at high pressure does not mean it can not squeeze fuel in a larger line at lower pressure.  That is exactly the premise of having a HVHP or LVHP or LPHV or LVLP pump.  It appears that neither you nor I have done any testing to either prove or disprove that the tank pump is the limiting factor.  Your answers to previous posts suggest it may be the issue, or the HP pump may be the issue.  Is it not possible that larger fuel lines may be part of the solution?  Perhaps you change the tank pump AND change the fuel lines, thereby ensuring the HPFP gets sufficient fuel?  I'm trying to think outside your box and help you come up with solutions.  Additionally, if the HPFP is sucking the line dry, having a larger line at the same static pressure will mean there is a larger supply to pull from, thus taking longer to "empty out" than a smaller line at the same static pressure.  The variable here is that when the car is running, it is not static pressure.  I'm not sure how you can't see that more fuel at the pick up point is not better for what you are trying to fix.  I asked when and for what duration you were seeing your fuel starvation.  With more info on when and why you are seeing this issue with 93, perhaps someone will be able to come up with a solution that you yourself had not thought of.  Perhaps we will even discover something earth shattering in the world of racing and you will become famous.  When you do, all I ask is a small sticker on the car that pays homage to the KP website for it's genius in finding the breakthrough.
I figured I better inject some humour before things got out of hand.  In reality, I am trying to help solve your problem by coming up with ideas you may not have thought of.  What we need are real numbers and solid info on the tank pump.  It is entirely possible it can keep a line twice the size of stock filled with the same pressure as stock for the same duration as stock, thereby increasing the amount of fuel / volume of fuel that is provided to the HPFP, there by solving your temporary fuel starvation issue at the peak RPM range if that is the only time you are experiencing the issue.  If the issue is truly a momentary problem, the smallest of changes may very well solve it.  If the issue starts at 3000 rpm and goes all the way to redline, then a small solution may not be the answer.  Either way, providing a larger "reservoir" of fuel to the HPFP can not hurt.  Creating a small "tank" right at the pick up point may very well solve you problems as well.  Of course, I don't know what the SCCA would say about it.

GJ
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:14:01 PM by Gentleman Jack »
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2011, 03:35:54 PM »
If you go back to the second post on this thread I suggest that someone install a pressure gauge in the line between the LPFP and the HPFP and see what happens to pressure as the engine increases in RPM.  DDM Dave later says the same thing and that there is already a pickup point to do just that.

Since this is so simple to do and SOB has this exact problem he can easily solve this whole issue of which pump is the problem, or maybe they both are.  I would have though that a former Snap-on dealer would have or could easily get a pressure gauge to test this out.  So SOB what is keeping you from ending this question for us?  After all that was the whole point in Miller asking the question, it was not to get into some JVB style word/post fight.

GJ instead of a reservoir an accumulator would be a better idea as it would also keep from having a pressure drop when the reserve fuel starts to get pulled by the HPFP.
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2011, 04:35:53 PM »
SA,

Thank you for keeping us straight.  SOB and I are not intersted in getting in to a Johnson Vagina Battle type discussion.  SOB seems to be a very linear thinker (much like my Dad, a GREAT man) where as I am more a theoretical thinker.  I have learned throughout my life that those two trains of thought, while both valid, often reach an impass.  I am hoping SOB and I are not there yet as we actually might be making some progress, in a round about way.

GJ

other thoughts for what a JVB style might be:
Jello Vs. Budding (ok, it's supposed to be pudding, cut me some slack)
Japan Visitors Bureau
Jolly Vulgar Brits
Jiggly Volumptuous Breast
Just Very Babyish



Last, I shall have to look up "accumulator," but I have a feeling that is what i was thinking, just not saying.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »
Since this is so simple to do and SOB has this exact problem he can easily solve this whole issue of which pump is the problem, or maybe they both are.  I would have though that a former Snap-on dealer would have or could easily get a pressure gauge to test this out.  So SOB what is keeping you from ending this question for us?
 

1) I am not selling pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!! I am amazed how little definitive information is available from vendors.
2) Assuming I obtain a gauge (NOT an issue!!), my problem occurs while racing. How am I supposed to beat the snot out of the car AND read a gauge ?!?!?!?! Anybody?
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2011, 06:03:15 PM »
SOB seems to be a very linear thinker (much like my Dad, a GREAT man) where as I am more a theoretical thinker. 

While it seems so, I leave "linear thinking" to engineer types. That said, what I DO work with is empirical information. If "X" happens, "X" happened. THEN, the questions are WHY "X" occurred, and what will resolve "X". Continuing, I am smart enough to know when I am not smart enough !!!!! So ............ I have high rpm/load starvation, I have installed a higher volume tank pump, and the problem still exists. Hence, the pump did not resolve the problem. While SOMEWHAT linear, the facts are the facts. There are two pumps (variables) and one did not help. There is a track record of these issues in the Cobalt dyno racer/ricer community. ZZP is "chasing" a HVHP rail pump, seen some improvement, and do not yet actually offer it. So ..................... I am assuming nothing. I want a HVHP to answer that question. Guessing answers nothing.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline elff

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2011, 08:01:52 PM »
1) I am not selling pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!! I am amazed how little definitive information is available from vendors.
2) Assuming I obtain a gauge (NOT an issue!!), my problem occurs while racing. How am I supposed to beat the snot out of the car AND read a gauge ?!?!?!?! Anybody?

Simple,
Extend the gauge into the cockpit onto the Apillar
Ignore it until you run into the issue.
The minute the sympton comes up look at the gauge.

Before you say no way, take a look at an F1 steering wheel and all the adjustments those guys do at triple digit speeds

Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2011, 08:21:47 PM »
Simple,
Extend the gauge into the cockpit onto the Apillar
Ignore it until you run into the issue.
The minute the sympton comes up look at the gauge.

Before you say no way, take a look at an F1 steering wheel and all the adjustments those guys do at triple digit speeds

1) If I had the abilities of those guys, we would not be having these exchanges !!!!!!!!!!!!! 
2) If I had telemetry, someone else would know about these fuel issues !!!!!!!!!!!!
3) If you have autocrossed, you would know there is not time to look at anything except the next set of cones.
4) If the problem was something that one could call "steady state", it could be observed on gauges.
5) Have you ever TRIED to look at a fuel pressure gauge while driving in competition --- anywhere or anytime? As a mechanic, I have (doing diagnostic work). It is best left to a passenger.

We are starting to dive into a pool of red herrings.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline elff

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2011, 09:11:16 PM »
I have autocrossed and I can look at things mid run and since this an event that pretty much kills your result.  Eat a cone and gather some information.
But, you answered your own question
My solution plus a passenger.  You say another guy drives your car.  Do runs with both of you in the car.  When it falls flat, Have him gather the data. 

Other solution is to stop complaining and deal with it.

People are trying to help you, and I am sorry to say, you are being kind of an @$$ in your responses.

Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2011, 09:23:38 PM »
Does it have to be when you auto x?  Maybe you could just find an empty parking lot and a passenger.  Worst case how about a video camera that films the gauge when you race.

Which LPFP did you go to?  One is claimed to have a lover CFM than stock, so just because you changed out a pump doesn't mean you made an improvement.

GJ an accumulator is like a reservoir but it has two chambers, a gas chamber, and a fluid chamber.  The gas chamber is pressurized.  There is divider between the two chambers which will move as the fluid side volume changes.  The pressurized gas chamber helps to keep the fluid under pressure as the fluid volume changes. 
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2011, 10:46:58 PM »
Bob,

I am sorry I keep going back to this, but if you have installed a higher capacity pump, but you are still dealing with the same size line, all you are accomplishing is increasing the pressure in the line.  You are not increasing the volume of fuel in the line.  When the fuel really starts flowing, I am sure the pressure goes sky high.  Think about it in terms of a straw.  I don't care how hard you suck on a coffee stir straw, you can't pull as much fluid thru it as you can a McDonalds "shake" straw.  You are the same pump (your mouth) with two different sized pipes.  I am having trouble seeing how someone with your knowledge and experience cant see this as a possibility

As for logging the pressure while driving, a passenger is a really easy way to accomplish this, as is a video camera.  Until you see if the pressure drops, it is possible that the pressure stays constant, yet the volume of fuel is simply not there.

GJ
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2011, 11:03:16 PM »
I have autocrossed and I can look at things mid run and since this an event that pretty much kills your result.  Eat a cone and gather some information.
But, you answered your own question
My solution plus a passenger.  You say another guy drives your car.  Do runs with both of you in the car.  When it falls flat, Have him gather the data. 

Other solution is to stop complaining and deal with it.

People are trying to help you, and I am sorry to say, you are being kind of an @$$ in your responses.


First, challenging responses is not being an ass. Maybe it would be helpful to throw E85 in the tank, get a tune, race the car, and see how losing 800 rpm feels. Next, "dealing with it" sounds like NOT looking for a solution. Further, I have not been able to replicate the problem on the street. To do so would require driving in a fashion that would land one in jail!! The problem is not predictable, so WHEN to have a passenger is impossible to predict. As for "eating a cone", intentionally compromising a run puts the load on course workers, and that is not fair.

The issue with E85 is not uncommon. I am simply questioning some of the conjecture. It's called bench racing. If some facts are revealed, all will benefit.

Here is what I DO know;
1) The tank in the Kappa has a floor that is flat as a billiard table. NOT good for controlling slosh.
2) The tank pump sets in a "bucket" that has ONE inlet besides the open top. The inlet is about the size of a dime and is controlled by a rubber diaphragm, so the flow is modest. [attach=1]
3) The problem occurs with E85 because the tune extends the dwell of the injectors to allow enough fuel to actually operate the engine under load and to not do so could destroy it. Gasoline seems not to have this problem (with stock turbos), not matter what octane or tune.
4) The E85 issue is well known, and so far the solutions center on tuning back the engine if it is having problems, and not all LNFs react the same. People have actually found problems with the factory fuel lines at the swedges. And building lines that can manage the pressure and volume is not a shade tree proposition.
5) The discussion about after market tank pumps flowing more/less than stock seems to be a Cobalt thing. ZZP states that the Walbro flows less than stock, but they say that is in reference to Cobalts. They have NOT answered my questions about the flow rate of Cobalt pump and the pump they sell. DDM insists that the Walbro flows more than the Kappa pump. (And I, or others, have found NO reason to doubt what Dave says about anything Kappa.)
6) I am still waiting for some answers to these sort of questions in another thread, but nothing so far.
7) The varied opinions are welcome, and some may lead to new ideas. Maybe if some who have tried E85 and tunes in race conditions can share what their experiences have been.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2011, 11:10:50 PM »
Bob,

I am sorry I keep going back to this, but if you have installed a higher capacity pump, but you are still dealing with the same size line, all you are accomplishing is increasing the pressure in the line.  You are not increasing the volume of fuel in the line.  When the fuel really starts flowing, I am sure the pressure goes sky high.  Think about it in terms of a straw.  I don't care how hard you suck on a coffee stir straw, you can't pull as much fluid thru it as you can a McDonalds "shake" straw.  You are the same pump (your mouth) with two different sized pipes.  I am having trouble seeing how someone with your knowledge and experience cant see this as a possibility

As for logging the pressure while driving, a passenger is a really easy way to accomplish this, as is a video camera.  Until you see if the pressure drops, it is possible that the pressure stays constant, yet the volume of fuel is simply not there.

GJ

You may be correct about the line size, but this might be a matter of fluid dynamics and math that is above my pay grade. ZZP has not been very forthcoming with real answers. They HAVE been playing with higher output rail pumps, E85, tunes, etc., but have made no mention of fuel lines. They have stated that their prototypes have worked but have been reluctant to go to market with them in any numbers. MUCH of what they do is for 'Balts with no apparent pressure to experiment with Kappas, even though they own a Redline. They HAVE said that they have done almost nothing with it!!!

The pump I have is a Walbro supplied by DDM. They say it has higher volume (roughly 30% by specs) and I can't see why I should doubt Dave and his group.

At this point, I have found a partial resolution, there is one event left this season, and until April much can happen. I can wait.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 11:13:57 PM by snaponbob »
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline elff

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2011, 08:37:26 AM »
Challenging response no,
The way you have been challenging them yes.
Using all CAPS and ending sentences with multiple EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!
Implys. That you are yelling. 

We have exhausted the bench racing. It's time to gather real world data and there is a means to do it.  Combine mine and SA's solution.
There comes a time when you have to walk away from the keyboard and test some of the suggestions and opinions to see if they will gather more information and/or resolve the issue.  IMHO you are that stage.   
Right now we have no idea if your issue is the hpfp.  We can debate, discuss,  with no change in status

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2011, 08:46:18 AM »
Get HPT Pro then you can log the external sensor so you can see it along side the ECM values.
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2011, 08:49:27 AM »
Bob,

I am sorry I keep going back to this, but if you have installed a higher capacity pump, but you are still dealing with the same size line, all you are accomplishing is increasing the pressure in the line.  You are not increasing the volume of fuel in the line.  When the fuel really starts flowing, I am sure the pressure goes sky high.  Think about it in terms of a straw.  I don't care how hard you suck on a coffee stir straw, you can't pull as much fluid thru it as you can a McDonalds "shake" straw.  You are the same pump (your mouth) with two different sized pipes.  I am having trouble seeing how someone with your knowledge and experience cant see this as a possibility

As for logging the pressure while driving, a passenger is a really easy way to accomplish this, as is a video camera.  Until you see if the pressure drops, it is possible that the pressure stays constant, yet the volume of fuel is simply not there.

GJ

I am going to assume the new pump behaves similar to the stock pump. The stock pump has a regulator that is controlled by the pressure in the line. It's meant to maintain a constant pressure and will flow more or less in order to keep this pressure. Our car does not have a return line to the fuel tank so the low pressure pump can't send too much fuel to the engine because it won't have anywhere to go.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2011, 09:05:52 AM »
I might be worthwhile going back to the OP. The question was about pumps. He is correct that diesel hot rodders (tuners) change pumps for the same reason we may need to. More fuel. Having seen what gets done on that front (including pullers) fuel lines are not addressed until the flow requirements get just crazy. In our case the existing lines can (generally) flow the needed amount for the occasional increase to satisfy the momentary needs under high load. The analogy of the water hose is correct, but the assumption is that the existing fuel system pressures and flow capacities are at/near already matched to the existing supply needs. In other words, no "overhead".

As for "adapting" or "dealing with it", that has been done in several ways. For all sorts of reasons, fuel lines will be well down the list. If ZZP (and others) can produce successful high E85 outputs with higher capacity tank pumps and prototype rail pumps, then apparently fuel line capacity exists, or they would be selling (or at least using) larger lines. DDM has through large turbos on 2.4s, fueled them, and nobody has ever discussed larger fuel lines. It would seem that if Dave needed them, used them, and had success, he would already be offering/recommending larger lines. Could lines be an issue? Maybe. Am I dismissing the idea. No. But until I install a larger rail pump and race the car, the lines will remain stock. A failed pump experiment is an "ah sh!t" moment. A failed fuel line experiment can burn down a car.

There. No caps, no other punctuation marks. I wasn't using either as "yelling".

Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2011, 09:16:14 AM »
I am going to assume the new pump behaves similar to the stock pump. The stock pump has a regulator that is controlled by the pressure in the line. It's meant to maintain a constant pressure and will flow more or less in order to keep this pressure. Our car does not have a return line to the fuel tank so the low pressure pump can't send too much fuel to the engine because it won't have anywhere to go.

Considering the way it hooks up (identical to stock) it would have to. That said, if the rail pump is operating at capacity, it can "ask" for no more from the existing lines. If that is the bottle neck, a higher flow rail pump would "ask" for more, and this might no longer be a restriction.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline elff

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2011, 09:23:27 AM »
Miller,

Is your car ok, or are you having issues with fuel delivery with the new setup?

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2011, 10:15:33 AM »
If you can't use the gauge while driving, put it on a dyno, or go to a drag strip where you can wind it up to those high revs.

I really think that's going to tell you everything you need to know.
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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2011, 10:32:56 AM »
Miller,

Is your car ok, or are you having issues with fuel delivery with the new setup?

No elff. My car runs perfect as of now ;) hopefully it can stay that way.

 I am having a ton of differing info, and no one will compare apples to apples. DDM dave says one thing, zzp says another. Some of my diesel friends say it should work, others say no. I just want an answer before I build a motor and run into a really expensive wall. 5th injector setups  and meth injection are OK, but I just dont trust them because if you have any issues with the spray failing, you will instantly have a 10k race motor paperweight.

I want to know if a hpfp is possible with any modifications. ie larger in tank pump, larger fuel lobe cam, altering injector spray pattern, etc.

ZZP claims with a large fuel lobe cam, injector spray (HPT) changes and upgraded in tank pump 898whp is achievable without other fuel being sprayed in the mani.

So bobs point is pretty mute for me because he still has stock cams, and is looking to work within SCCA guidelines, which is fine. It is just not what I need. I have no rules or regs, and if I can fuel 700-800hp via our hpfp and mods, I want to go that route for safety and tuning ease.
Check out Miller's Youtube Channel HERE

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2011, 11:15:22 AM »
 Just wait for 888 to finish his car then you will know what works
2007 Sky Redline - Wester's Tuned - GMPP sensors - RMR Roll Bar - Kirkey Seats
Schroth Harnesses - SSR Wheels - Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs - Complete Mod List
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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2011, 11:22:07 AM »
Just wait for 888 to finish his car then you will know what works

Pretty sure hes not running a large lobe fuel cam, and has injectors to spray at high rpm, but maybe im mistaken
Check out Miller's Youtube Channel HERE

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
just scrap DI altogether. Not worth the hassle. :)
2007 Sky Redline - Wester's Tuned - GMPP sensors - RMR Roll Bar - Kirkey Seats
Schroth Harnesses - SSR Wheels - Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs - Complete Mod List
kennysabarese.com - Photos - Facebook - Twitter - RSS