Author Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor? (Read 123621 times)

miller11386 · « **Reply #75 on:** October 16, 2011, 12:02:59 PM »

Then I will grab an evo or vette if I want to get power w.o mpg

kennysabarese · « **Reply #76 on:** October 16, 2011, 12:07:16 PM »

Why do U care about mpg? The relative cost of losing a few mpg is small compared to the investment you are making for the build.

miller11386 · « **Reply #77 on:** October 16, 2011, 12:43:34 PM »

True, but its what I want

Gentleman Jack · « **Reply #78 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:25:04 AM »

MPG? Miller, you lost me somewhere between 800 HP and MPG......

miller11386 · « **Reply #79 on:** October 18, 2011, 05:56:52 AM »

With a HPFP setup if you stay out of it, you can get decent mpg.

IE 460whp and 27mpg highway (20ish city)

With my trips to MD, SC, Toronto, etc, its always nice to get somewhat decent mpg on those long hauls. Last trip to MD I got 31mpg with the AC on. Canada I got 30mpg. All this at 350whp.

1badjimmy · « **Reply #80 on:** October 21, 2011, 10:40:21 PM »

Not sure if it is possible for us but there is an option for the Chevrolet and Dodge diesels to use a secondary HPFP. There is also options for lift pumps for them as well. I know my 2005 Duramax has no lift pump in between the fuel tank and the HPFP. And I have not heard of any larger fuel lines in use although there is a larger in tank fuel pickup available which is usually highly recommended for those seeking more performance out of their Duramax.

miller11386 · « **Reply #81 on:** January 15, 2012, 03:52:41 PM »

Finally revisited this topic after some time.......

Did some digging, and the volumes are discussed in CCM..... so not really sure if they are better or worse than the stock HPFP. Either way, here is a link to bosch's site and the "upgrade" pump. Pricey stuff though. ~$2000 USD for the pump. (1580 Euro)

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/language1/html/2832.htm

SKY888 · « **Reply #82 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:56:28 PM »

ok, I just want to update this thread......some INFOS need to be cleared.

been in constant communications w/ DDM and ZZP.

I talked to DDM Dave early last year, and he actually sent me a DDM walbro 255lph pump kit.
I know that bob was having issues last year, both of us were hoping that this DDM walbro kit will help his issues. Since my build is not yet finished, I sold my kit to Bob, who needs the kit more than me at that time. Too bad the kit is not enough to cure the issues that bob has

To clear things up:

1.) Yes, DDM is correct by stating that the Walbro 255lph pump can flow better than stock pump (kappa).

2.) ZZP told Bob that the stock pump flows more than the walbro 255lph ...which is also true! Because they are talking about cobalt pumps and NOT kappa pumps.

3.) cobalt LNF pumps are totally different than Kappa LNF pumps!!!
Cobalt SS/TC pump: 19257689
Sky Redline/Solstice GXP pump: 19168428

4.) The cobalt LNF lpfp flows a lil more/similar compared to walbro 255lph pump

5.) The kappa LNF lpfp flows around 220-230ish lph

6.) ZZP's hpfp will not be released any time soon. During testing, it didnt produce the results that ZZP was hoping for. So it will be a loooooong time.....before they'll release one, if they still go that route.

hopefully this clears the confusions....

tazz · « **Reply #83 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:04:23 PM »

?
Could one use the Cobalt LNF lpfp in a Kappa?

SKY888 · « **Reply #84 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:13:54 PM »

Quote from: tazz on March 02, 2012, 04:04:23 PM

?
Could one use the Cobalt LNF lpfp in a Kappa?

I don't see why it wont fit and be used in a kappa. Most of these in-tank pumps are very very similar in sizes.

But instead of using the cobalt lpfp, I'll get Deatschwerks 300lph or Aeromotive 340lph pumps......

I like DW 300lph pump....since it is the only pump 100% COMPATIBLE with Ethanol. I havent seen aeromotive and walbro claim that their pumps are 100% compatible w/ E.
That's why I got this DW pump from WERKS (our vendor). It's rated up to 700hp.

Walbro 400lph is the baddest right now........but it has a bigger bottom and I don't think it will be "drop-in" Lots of modification needed. And I don't like it since its not really 100% compatible with E.

DW pump is the best for me right now...........due to compatibility with E.
Plus of course offers 3 year warranty!

if you look at the comparisson flow charts between Aeromotive 340lph vs DW 300lph.........I prefer the characteristics of the DW for forced induction vehicles with returnless set-ups

snaponbob · « **Reply #85 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:48:09 PM »

Quote from: SKY888 on March 02, 2012, 03:56:28 PM

ok, I just want to update this thread......some INFOS need to be cleared.

been in constant communications w/ DDM and ZZP.

I talked to DDM Dave early last year, and he actually sent me a DDM walbro 255lph pump kit.
I know that bob was having issues last year, both of us were hoping that this DDM walbro kit will help his issues. Since my build is not yet finished, I sold my kit to Bob, who needs the kit more than me at that time. Too bad the kit is not enough to cure the issues that bob has

To clear things up:

1.) Yes, DDM is correct by stating that the Walbro 255lph pump can flow better than stock pump (kappa).

2.) ZZP told Bob that the stock pump flows more than the walbro 255lph ...which is also true! Because they are talking about cobalt pumps and NOT kappa pumps.

3.) cobalt LNF pumps are totally different than Kappa LNF pumps!!!
Cobalt SS/TC pump: 19257689
Sky Redline/Solstice GXP pump: 19168428

4.) The cobalt LNF lpfp flows a lil more/similar compared to walbro 255lph pump

5.) The kappa LNF lpfp flows around 220-230ish lph

6.) ZZP's hpfp will not be released any time soon. During testing, it didnt produce the results that ZZP was hoping for. So it will be a loooooong time.....before they'll release one, if they still go that route.

hopefully this clears the confusions....

I suspected that what you were told about the Kappa and Cobalt pumps had top be WHY ZZP said what they said, but they simply would not confirm/deny. Hopefully my Walbro will not have an issue with E. If it does, what are the symptoms?

miller11386 · « **Reply #86 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:50:59 PM »

symptom?

P0087 "low fuel rail pressure" is what most people experience.

SKY888 · « **Reply #87 on:** March 02, 2012, 06:03:00 PM »

Quote from: snaponbob on March 02, 2012, 05:48:09 PM

I suspected that what you were told about the Kappa and Cobalt pumps had top be WHY ZZP said what they said, but they simply would not confirm/deny. Hopefully my Walbro will not have an issue with E. If it does, what are the symptoms?

usually these pumps, even though they're not 100% compatible...will still work fine.....but not as durable as ethanol compatible pumps.

Symptoms might just be small leak due to deterioration of plastic/rubber seals and parts........or worst, pump will just die all of a sudden.

I know that with the injectors......the seals that are made of teflon doesnt last long with ethanol usage..........unlike viton seals.

miller11386 · « **Reply #88 on:** March 02, 2012, 07:05:09 PM »

lol sorry ab that. skimming bit me on that one

thanks for the right answer antonio

kennysabarese · « **Reply #89 on:** March 02, 2012, 07:21:41 PM »

Not sure bob was asking about deterioration issues, but flow issues. There is a specific code if the low pressure pump has a problem. I don't think it's the same as the one miller has mentioned. But I can't recall ATM.

snaponbob · « **Reply #90 on:** March 02, 2012, 08:56:39 PM »

In fact, I was asking about symptoms of tank pump failure due to E fuel exposure. Believe me - I KNOW about the symptoms of lack of fuel flow with straight E85. And it isn't nice.

SKY888 · « **Reply #91 on:** March 02, 2012, 08:58:01 PM »

Quote from: snaponbob on March 02, 2012, 08:56:39 PM

In fact, I was asking about symptoms of tank pump failure due to E fuel exposure. Believe me - I KNOW about the symptoms of lack of fuel flow with straight E85. And it isn't nice.

that's what I thought!

rlhammon · « **Reply #92 on:** March 04, 2012, 02:31:52 PM »

Quote from: snaponbob on March 02, 2012, 08:56:39 PM

In fact, I was asking about symptoms of tank pump failure due to E fuel exposure. Believe me - I KNOW about the symptoms of lack of fuel flow with straight E85. And it isn't nice.

You and I both Bob. Looks like we are left with running something less between E10 and E85 this year again.

I was hoping you all had found an answer. I live about 20 mins. from ZZP, but they don't ever seem interested in support Kappa's. I've been looking forward to their upgraded HPFP.

Also, Walbro had two units mocked up last year (2011) with a new upgraded HPFP. I can't find the paper I had seen online about it, but they installed one in an E85 powered HHR SS, which has the LNF motor. The second unit, I was told by Walbro, was on a bench test. I heard results were due March / April of 2012... but haven't seen anything, nor have I had any responses back from the contacts I had previously.

Anyone with connections to Walbro that can check on this?

tazz · « **Reply #93 on:** March 04, 2012, 03:58:19 PM »

Why not run around E47?
Just read an article posted on another site that says E20 gives you 97% of the power of E85 so why not run somewhere in between like E47? Run that and you'll have as good as it gets for the kappasand without fueling issues.
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2011-01-0900.pdf

kennysabarese · « **Reply #94 on:** March 04, 2012, 06:52:54 PM »

I don't get what's up with ZZP and the Kappa, they bought a Sky at some point, maybe they don't see the opportunity to make enough money so they haven't pursued it.

That Delphi study is great, I would just focus on E47 until an HPFP comes out.

snaponbob · « **Reply #95 on:** March 04, 2012, 07:41:33 PM »

From a purely business model viewpoint, why would anybody START supporting the Kappas at this point. ZZP has been busy with LNFs in the Chevy platforms, and that is where the mark VOLUME is at this point. E47 is where I will be at this point. There is a C-store nearby that serves up E20 and E30, but those are few and far between. E47 is simple - half one, and half the other. First event at the end of March, so we will see.

SKY888 · « **Reply #96 on:** March 04, 2012, 09:57:21 PM »

all the LNF upgrades that ZZP offers.......apply to kappa anyways

snaponbob · « **Reply #97 on:** March 04, 2012, 10:32:09 PM »

Quote from: SKY888 on March 04, 2012, 09:57:21 PM

all the LNF upgrades that ZZP offers.......apply to kappa anyways

I am sure that is true. But, when they hear that a Kappa is being discussed, the tone of the conversation changes.

SKY888 · « **Reply #98 on:** March 05, 2012, 07:40:22 AM »

Quote from: snaponbob on March 04, 2012, 10:32:09 PM

I am sure that is true. But, when they hear that a Kappa is being discussed, the tone of the conversation changes.

That's sad to know but I really beg to differ Bob.

Most of the updates that I posted on this thread last week, was given to me by Matt.

I know a lot of people hate Matt due to his harsh comments on forums and etc, but Matt including Zoomer never game me the impressions of a changed tone, when I talk about kappa upgrades and such.

My car is tuned and always worked on by SMG (one of the arch-competitor Vendors/tuner at css)........and my car is sponsored by WERKs (another big time competitor, and had a lot of forum fights with zpp)...................and both of these are well known by ZZP...........and that's why when I applied for sponsorhip for their stage 1 cams w/ big fuel lobe, I got denied....lol. But to be honest, they are very helpful to all of my questions and inquiries. I never noticed any difference in tone.

Actually, Matt will help me out with a fuel system upgrade that they've never even done on an LNF cobalt. This will be the first among all LNF platforms. He'll be out this whole week, but we'll resume with our project in a couple of weeks.

SKY888 · « **Reply #99 on:** March 05, 2012, 08:00:43 AM »

Quote from: tazz on March 04, 2012, 03:58:19 PM

Why not run around E47?

because not all people are comfortable....or have the time.....or have the storage space...........of mixing.

I live in a condo....and having a pair of 55 gallon drums and mixing them ....will cause issues with my neighbors due to dangers/fumes/etc that might happen.

Mixing and guestimating at the gas station might also be hassle for some people.

buying an ethanol tester costs...

Lots of other valid reasons out there.

I actually would like to run e47.........but we'll see what happens....

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Author Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor? (Read 123621 times)