Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?

[snaponbob]

Antonio, it's good that Matt has been helpful for you. Not so much here. So be it.

Anyway, given the E47 is (effectively) 50/50 mix of premium/E85, there should be LESS impact of the ethanol content because there is half as much as 100% E85. Vince has said that he builds the tune to be tolerant of seasonal changes. If someone has tuned a car to max out the power on (say for instance) summer E85 they could have an issue with winter E85 (down to E70 in a lot of markets). But, I would think that the KR would/might come in to keep things safe. Getting back to the hassle factor, E47 is easy when the tank is low - tougher at/above half full.

[SKY888]

E47 is easy when the tank is low - tougher at/above half full.

yeah, its easy if there are multiple ethanol stations in the area, and you can anticipate it.

but if there are limited ethanol stations, you will try to fill-up when you can....to avoid multiple trips or long drives.

having 55 gallon drums will be easy if its a possibility and storage space is available.

I'll find out the "hassles" once I start driving my car      We only have 2 E stations (boston and seekonk).  I will never drive to hectic boston.........but will only drive to the seekonk station which is still about an hour away from home (but only 10 mins away from work).


And yeah, people are using Ethanol because primarily for more power/tq and can push the engine a lil bit more.  And that's why I'll be using it.    I know that blends will be changing from summer to winter........and I'll probably have 2 tunes.  One MAX TUNE where I'll be using a well-measured ethanol blend.....and the other will be a DRIVE TUNE where it will be able to tolerate the different blends of ethanol.

Having an HP tuner software will be beneficial for people who will be using ethanol, since you can change tune on the fly.

[snaponbob]

Good luck STARTING your car in the dead of winter !!! As for HPT, can it even be used on a Trifecta tune? If not, those of us that are not savvy with tuning will be in trouble. 

[miller11386]

HPT lets you re flash at any time when you license your car with the software. Trifecta tunes can be flashed with the EZ flash cable.

HPT allows the user to edit parameters (Launch control parameters, rev limiters etc). EZ flash just lets you re flash the ECU with whatever you have stored in it. Not sure if it can hold multiple maps, but HPT can because it is PC based.

I have similar issues with E85 in my area Antonio. Both of the stations are not really that convenient for me to get to, and about an hour drive from me. I am debating on getting a 91 oct tune to drive on and use 93 that is available all around for DD use. For a race tune, I may go with E85. There is about 100whp difference on the setup I am looking at in the evo world... the huge power gain makes the hassle worth it for track days IMO. Guys rock 600awhp on 93 and get closer to 700awhp on E85...

If only a station by me carried it.......

[SKY888]

Good luck STARTING your car in the dead of winter !!! As for HPT, can it even be used on a Trifecta tune? If not, those of us that are not savvy with tuning will be in trouble. 

car will be inside a cozy place after my build and will be attached to a battery tender, during winter!  will no longer be driving it during winter.  Lipstick will no longer be a DD........but a toy car during summer from now on.

HPT, unfortunately will not work with Trifecta.  Totally different platforms, unfortunately.

I am not a savvy tuner as well, and just learn every single day.   But I chose HPT platform for the convenience of it.   I can change SAVED tunes (aggressive vs non-aggressive) in less than 2 minutes.   

I learn from my "BSR handheld tuner" during the days.......lol.  That I can't adjust that tune, if I wanted to.....so I gave mine away.....lol

My issue with trifecta tune is.....you are bounded by Vince available time.   If you need to adjust a tune, then you wait for him...sometimes days/weeks.    I  am not sure though if you have your own trifecta EZ flash cable.....if you can save 2 tunes as well?   And just flash whatever tune you want in a breeze?   

[snaponbob]

I have the cable and store tunes on a notebook.

[SKY888]

I have similar issues with E85 in my area Antonio. Both of the stations are not really that convenient for me to get to, and about an hour drive from me. I am debating on getting a 91 oct tune to drive on and use 93 that is available all around for DD use. For a race tune, I may go with E85. There is about 100whp difference on the setup I am looking at in the evo world... the huge power gain makes the hassle worth it for track days IMO. Guys rock 600awhp on 93 and get closer to 700awhp on E85...

If only a station by me carried it.......

Ethanol is really a win-win situation for people who have a convenient access to it.   
Gives power.......and cheap cost.


Problem that I can think of is basically what the topic is all about.   It aggravates the issue of our fuel system.

Our HPFP can only deliver so much fuel.......and w/o a cam, big fuel lobe...........somebody like SOB have hiccups on his engine's fueling even though it has a stock turbo w/ basic bolt ons.

Problem with somebody like me with a big turbo that wanted to go balls out........even if I have a secondary fuel rail/port injectors......and cam w/ big fuel lobe..............the LPFP I believe will not be able to support the fuel needs (even with Deatschwerks 300lph pump upgrade) I would like to supply.


HPFP and LPFP......both are the limiting factors for our engines (depending on the set-up)! 

[SKY888]

I have the cable and store tunes on a notebook.

so you're good to go then Bob!

just save 2 tunes for your set-up as well!  One aggressive...one mild! 

Only issue is......even if you're using your "mild tune".....then all of a sudden you hear knock....or see KRs on your gauges.........due to a huge blend difference in ethanol......

Unlike with HPT owners who can at least adjust the tune (timing/boost/etc) during that time

[SKY888]

There is about 100whp difference on the setup I am looking at in the evo world... the huge power gain makes the hassle worth it for track days IMO. Guys rock 600awhp on 93 and get closer to 700awhp on E85...

Yeah, I was reading on the evo forums for some time now.   
Huge difference compared to LNF platform:
1.)  They have HUGE aftermarket support
2.)  Run stand alone computers
3.)  Change their LPFP to Buschur double pumps
4.)  Change their injectors to 1000-2000ccs

Tune w/ ethanol.....and voila..........no more issues! 


our platform lags soooo much behind in both software and hardware 

[kennysabarese]

You can get standalone ECU for the Ecotec. But I'm not sure if one is compatible with the LNF yet. GM Racing has tunes for F.A.S.T. XFI ECU available.

If I was going to start all over again, I'd go with whatever works on an aftermarket ECU. Then you truly are in full control. But it's not cheap. Looking at 2 grand for an XFI setup with traction control and data logging.

[SKY888]

You can get standalone ECU for the Ecotec. But I'm not sure if one is compatible with the LNF yet. GM Racing has tunes for F.A.S.T. XFI ECU available.

If I was going to start all over again, I'd go with whatever works on an aftermarket ECU. Then you truly are in full control. But it's not cheap. Looking at 2 grand for an XFI setup with traction control and data logging.

I dont think it has control with LNF.....that's what I understood.

Somebody who tried this on LNF...pls correct me.   But I'm pretty sure its only for the other ecotec engines (non-DI).



My contact from Canada, has the Bosch race ECU with included software that his contact from Germany provided his crew.   Only 4 cars has this and 3 of them are in Canada...and one in Germany.   Full controls from top to bottom.   But only for the priviledged though.   All their race kappas are not for drag though.....but road racing.  So they're not trying to get the most power from the engines


But with all of these stand alone computers..........DI injectors and HPFP still needs to be upgraded.   

[snaponbob]

There is something being forgotten with the Evos. The LNF has direct injection and the Evos have port injection. Evos have bigger injectors and different pumps available and we don't. Tyey can just keep dumping more and more fuel and we can't. It's that simple. An Evo with injectors, pump, add on turbo controller (ECM piggy back), and E85 can easily be tuned to 400whp. Start playing with turbos and the sky is the limit, but so is the transmission !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kennysabarese]

I'd be willing to give up DI for the better ECU control.

Anyone know what ECUs are being used in the 2012 Buick turbo?

[kennysabarese]

There is something being forgotten with the Evos. The LNF has direct injection and the Evos have port injection. Evos have bigger injectors and different pumps available and we don't. Tyey can just keep dumping more and more fuel and we can't. It's that simple. An Evo with injectors, pump, add on turbo controller (ECM piggy back), and E85 can easily be tuned to 400whp. Start playing with turbos and the sky is the limit, but so is the transmission !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly right. Port injection is so much easier to dump more fuel because there's a billion port injection parts out there in the market. DI is relatively new and only a handful of cars use it right now.

[snaponbob]

I'd be willing to give up DI for the better ECU control.

Anyone know what ECUs are being used in the 2012 Buick turbo?

Not to sound rude, but it would be easier to build up a LE5 Kappa. It is already a matter of fact that the none DI Ecotecs have tons of parts and power available. 

[SKY888]

I'd be willing to give up DI for the better ECU control.

With Subaru BRZ  (DI and port injectors combo coming from the factory).............

and all other cars going with DI.......

our DI system might have some hope?   

I dont know!!!  Let's see what happens. 

[kennysabarese]

Actually, that makes me think, what other cars are using DI, and are they having the same problems as us? What about the GM V6s that have DI. Can they run E85 and crank out bigger power?

Looks like it, V6 Camaro has turbo and supercharger kits and up the horsepower considerably. But I wonder if anyone is going big like 2x horsepower.

LE5 might be better than standalone ECU, but I don't know anything about tuning the LE5. Which is why I was asking about the Buick, I heard GM is not using Bosche anymore so maybe tuning the Buick's will be easier, and since it's very similar to us in terms of hardware, maybe we can use Buick ECUs on Kappas.

[SKY888]

Actually, that makes me think, what other cars are using DI, and are they having the same problems as us? What about the GM V6s that have DI. Can they run E85 and crank out bigger power?

that GM engine is about 460hp twin turbo (Turbonetics T-3 turbochargers )   

I think they'll be able to go 700hp using ethanol...w/o any issues..........because their injectors were already meant for 460hp........unlike our DI LNF injectors that were meant for 260 hp

[miller11386]

I would like to see an upgrade of both in tank pump (to something like a bushur DP) along with a second fuel rail as well. So fueling shouldn't be an issue in that scenario. However I cant imagine it being a breeze to tune/reflash like HPT, but it seems doable.


That being said If I had access to E85 that wasn't so far out, I would run it everyday. Best resource around here is at buschur who sells E98 which he distills himself.. but that's 2 hours away

[kennysabarese]

that GM engine is about 460hp twin turbo (Turbonetics T-3 turbochargers )   

I think they'll be able to go 700hp using ethanol...w/o any issues..........because their injectors were already meant for 460hp........unlike our DI LNF injectors that were meant for 260 hp

I assume none of those parts would work on our cars or someone would have used them by now.  It's too bad we can't borrow their HPFP

[SKY888]

LE5 might be better than standalone ECU, but I don't know anything about tuning the LE5. Which is why I was asking about the Buick, I heard GM is not using Bosche anymore so maybe tuning the Buick's will be easier, and since it's very similar to us in terms of hardware, maybe we can use Buick ECUs on Kappas.

Tuning the LE5 is just the same as tuning other non-DI engines.

using the Buick ECU to our LNF kappa will be fruitless.   We'll still have the same fueling issues we have right now.   Having an accessible software will be useless if the hardware is not capable.

[SKY888]

I assume none of those parts would work on our cars or someone would have used them by now.  It's too bad we can't borrow their HPFP

HPFP, DI injectors, camshafts, LPFP.....and etc!  If those are transferable.......

Then we'll be in heaven!

[kennysabarese]

Just looking at the Camaro forums and they've had problems with HPFP being able to deliver enough fuel on the v6 as well. We're not alone!

Looks like they are going to solve it using two HPFPs. No clue how that would work.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4318990&postcount=4

[SKY888]

Just looking at the Camaro forums and they've had problems with HPFP being able to deliver enough fuel on the v6 as well. We're not alone!

Looks like they are going to solve it using two HPFPs. No clue how that would work.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4318990&postcount=4

having an option of getting two hpfp   OR  adding port injectors are their options right now.

I chose PI since it already worked and tried by a couple of people.

having a second hpfp.......hmmm......I dont know how that will work on a 2 liter lnf engine.

[joshmass]

I just got finished reading through this thread and have a few thoughts on the matter.

1. HPT will work in conjunction with Trifecta as long as it's a "write calibration only". Vince's software is written to the ECU in a different manner than HPT so both can work simultaneously. However, if you do a "write entire" with HPT it will wipe out the Trifecta tune.

2. The fuel pressure can be dialed higher than 2900 psi in the HPFP through a tune. It tells me that GM did build in some overhead in the system beyond 200 Bar. Obviously the stock pump is limited to 200 bar.

3. The appropriate Bosch HPFP upgrade (above 200 Bar) would appear to be the HDP-5-FCV-HP but it requires plumbing in a return fuel line and an in-line pressure regulation valve. You also need to talk to Bosch regarding the maximum fuel pressure you want to have and they will advise you on the shape/size/number of cam lobes required. I'm not sure what Comp would charge for a one-off set of cams but they make ZZP's cams. Therefore it's not impossible - just maybe cost prohibitive.

5. I thought that Werks had solved the low pressure pump issue with their upgrade? They claim it can support up to 700hp but I haven't seen any real world evidence yet that shows it.

6. What power levels are people looking to achieve on the Kappa platform realistically? At a certain point I would think that you're going to overpower the chassis and/or tires. 450whp/wtq can be achieved with the stock fuel system (with a 4K-5K wide torque curve). You just need the other supporting pieces in place.

7. I don't see diesel making any further inroads in the US unfortunately. DI is where the industry is going for gas/ethanol engines. In order to get the MPG up and emissions down, DI is the way. We're all just at the forefront of it and have a lot to learn. If we keep pushing to understand how it all works in order to modify it safely we'll be one step ahead of everyone else.