Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?

[joshmass]

I've been looking into this over the winter.  I can't find a reason that it wouldn't work, except that I'd need to spend some considerable time on a dyno w/ data logging to see what is going on to tune the w/m system with the E85.  I don't have that kind of resources (time and/or money).

Bob and I are limited in modifications we can make (nothing internal to the engine, stock turbo), which limits what we can do.  As to the questions about ultimate goals... maximize hp and tq in the most useable fashion possible, or in other words, be faster than the EVO's!  What is that number??  We don't know, because we haven't gotten there yet.

We have both run 100+ octane and E85, and mixtures... but fueling issues come into play with E* and the power isn't there with 100+ octane fuel (I've run about 20 gallons of 104 in testing).  I get more power on a E* mixture than going over 100 octane, and I can get E* at multiple locations 24 hours a day.  Without a doubt it's the best route for Bob and I; however I think we are limited to an E47 setup currently.

If you can use water/meth injection, I'm wondering if the system I'm testing for Howerton would work better for you. Once we get the kinks worked out of course. I'd like to see you give the Evo boys a run for the money 

[SKY888]

if water/meth is allowed....both you and bob at scca event...can probably use Port Injection?

then just use and spray E85 using 4 nozzles on each manifold?  or is that not allowed?


if only one nozzle is allowed.....then just get a big nozzle and spray E85 that way.......in order to flow enough fuel needed........to avoid any hiccups.

[snaponbob]

rlhammon, water/meth is not SCCA legal.

[SKY888]

rlhammon, water/meth is not SCCA legal.

what about using water/meth kit to spray E85? 

[snaponbob]

what about using water/meth kit to spray E85? 

Maybe. But hear the protest would be entertaining as would the committee's discussion.

[rlhammon]

rlhammon, water/meth is not SCCA legal.

You sure?

15.10 ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN
G. Intake water injection systems are allowed.

Looks to me like they are... unless I'm way off base here.

The issue comes in with the next section:

H. Fuel lines and pumps are unrestricted except as specified herein, as long as they do not pose a safety hazard. Fuel lines may be no larger than 1/2” i.d. and may only connect to the original fuel tank or allowed fuel cell. They may be no longer than necessary for reasonable and safe installation, and may serve no other purpose. A single fuel feed line may be used. A single fuel return line may be used, and a fitting for connecting it may be added at or near the top of the fuel tank. This does not authorize “cool-cans”.

My thought was a water/meth kit, being fed from the fuel tank full of E85 with a return line to the original gas tank.  Unless I'm missing something (and I might very well be), I had this drawn up last fall after Nationals.  It's a thought... but nothing that I've done.  Heck, I haven't changed my car since Lincoln in any way (yet).

[snaponbob]

Water yes. ANY other liquid, no. The question, I believe, was water/meth spray.

[rlhammon]

Water yes. ANY other liquid, no. The question, I believe, was water/meth spray.

I get what you're saying... but section "G" has no restriction as to liquid used... it refers to a "system" not liquid type.  I realize it's one of those pushing the intent / written aspect of the rule and if it doesn't say you can... then you can't.  Well... it doesn't say anything about what you can use, and there is no restriction as to where you can add the fuel in section "H".

You should try it and see if Alex protests you, I promise I won't.

[snaponbob]

3.3.3.B.21  Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.

As far as I have ever heard, this is considered enough to be accepted prohibition. A true fifth injector or additional fuel rail is okay from SP on up.

[rlhammon]

3.3.3.B.21  Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.

As far as I have ever heard, this is considered enough to be accepted prohibition. A true fifth injector or additional fuel rail is okay from SP on up.

Dang rules!  Sometimes it's hard to follow links and sections from all over the rules, but you are right.  Dang... I thought I had found a solution.

[snaponbob]

I simply use the search function within Adobe Reader. This time I entered "alcohol".

[SKY888]

damn, so that idea of water/meth injection kit.....spraying E....will not work then.

too bad.....

[joshmass]

I'm not sure which of you lurk in the Cobalt forum but I'll be paying close attention to this latest development:

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/upgraded-hpfp-hello-zzp-anyone-245892-new/

Post# 69

[SKY888]

I'm not sure which of you lurk in the Cobalt forum but I'll be paying close attention to this latest development:

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/upgraded-hpfp-hello-zzp-anyone-245892-new/

thanks for the heads up josh!

Post# 69

[kennysabarese]

I'm subscribing to that one.

[miller11386]

I am not holding my breath on that 

As much as I can respect the GM engineering group, and im sure they are more than capable to tackle this task, the motorsports community usually comes up with the innovation on a lot of power mods. In the past that was the GMPP group. However since the bailout, that R&D is pretty much gone. Then OEM mfg companies take it innovation slowly after the motorsports people have it figured out (for example turbochargers).

If a bigger better hpfp is going to appear, it will have to come from the world of motor sports IMO.

If some of our GM Employees could get their hands on some HPFP prints, or someone had a destroyed hpfp that I could take apart, I could work with my resources to try to figure out how to get more volume out of it. But I dont plan on tearing a good pump apart just to see how it works.

I still think it would be possible to run 2 hpfp's of the one cam if you machined it in the block properly. The question then would be how to get the car to regulate the pressure. Either way, it would be an expensive affair. with the potential to ruin a motor.

[joshmass]

I am not holding my breath on that 

As much as I can respect the GM engineering group, and im sure they are more than capable to tackle this task, the motorsports community usually comes up with the innovation on a lot of power mods. In the past that was the GMPP group. However since the bailout, that R&D is pretty much gone. Then OEM mfg companies take it innovation slowly after the motorsports people have it figured out (for example turbochargers).

If a bigger better hpfp is going to appear, it will have to come from the world of motor sports IMO.

If some of our GM Employees could get their hands on some HPFP prints, or someone had a destroyed hpfp that I could take apart, I could work with my resources to try to figure out how to get more volume out of it. But I dont plan on tearing a good pump apart just to see how it works.

But that's the point. It's not GM, but the Bosch group that will be speaking on DI. If the guy can get some answers directly from them, that would be huge in trying to understand the limits and upgrade path.

[snaponbob]

While I agree that GM is not fast to the table with "goodies", maybe this guy will have something besides bullet points. GMPP and GM Performance are/were different entities. GMPP is gone, while GMP is still around. They have their hands in a lot of racing programs.

If there was a higher volume HPFP that did not require a different cam lobe, I would want one.

All that said, I will not be holding my breath for Bosch to have a higher volume bolt on pump for the LNF. But ................ if there IS one......

[joshmass]

If there was a higher volume HPFP that did not require a different cam lobe, I would want one.

I'm right there with you. Seeing that some HPFP are modified with the plunger and spring, anything is possible. Reading the datasheets on the pump offerings, however, it doesn't appear that way. Kinda sucks to have to buy upgraded cams just to be able to use an upgraded pump.

[tazz]

If some of our GM Employees could get their hands on some HPFP prints, or someone had a destroyed hpfp that I could take apart, I could work with my resources to try to figure out how to get more volume out of it. But I dont plan on tearing a good pump apart just to see how it works.

What does the hpfp look like?
I think I know what the part looks like but i could be wrong and I may know where there is one for around $50 would that be a reasonable price to tear it apart?

[miller11386]

HPFP:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad196/40rtyphoto/IMG_20120310_222238-1.jpg

Here is a link from which 40rty took a ton of really nice photos of his larger fuel lobe cam install
http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f25/last-hoorah-my-stock-turbo-40148/index7.html#post556810

[tazz]

Thanks miller.
I know where there is the whole setup from the HPFP and the little round reservoir tank for $50.
Not sure if anything can be done but what the heck $50 isn't too bad to throw away if nothing can be done.
I might just buy it and send it to you to see if anything can be done.

[miller11386]

I would welcome the challenge, Tazz!

[rlhammon]

If you're going to look at modifications to the HPFP, here is what you need to achieve.  "Tested Engine" is our LNF, "Optimized Engine" is an optimal design (for fuel efficiency) for a Flex Fuel version of the LNF:

Table 3: Specifications of fuel system components
Components                          Tested Engine                         Optimized Engine
Fuel Pump                              3-lob cam driven, 0.9cc/rev     4-lob cam driven, 1.1cc/rev
Injector                                  22.5cc/s                                  22.5cc/s, optimized spray targeting
Fuel Rail                                 135cc, 150bar                         66cc, 200bar
Pressure Sensor                    200bar                                    260bar

All of this comes from here (in case none of you have read this before):

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~annastef/papers_FFV/Optimally_Controlled_FFV-final.pdf

I also have a copy of the PowerPoint presentation that goes with this from the Federal Government Review (this research was federally funded).

If someone from BOSCH is coming (from the Cobalt thread), then I hope it's Hakan Yilmaz.  He's the guy in the know currently at BOSCH when it comes to the LNF and Flex Fuel.

It's been my understanding since 2010 that Walbro made the pump used in the testing cited in this report.  I don't know who made the modified pistons though.  I've been told there are two pumps, one in the HHR SS used for testing, the other on a bench conducting life testing... life testing was due to complete March 2012... hmm... that's now.

[SKY888]

If you're going to look at modifications to the HPFP, here is what you need to achieve.  "Tested Engine" is our LNF, "Optimized Engine" is an optimal design (for fuel efficiency) for a Flex Fuel version of the LNF:

Table 3: Specifications of fuel system components
Components                          Tested Engine                         Optimized Engine
Fuel Pump                              3-lob cam driven, 0.9cc/rev     4-lob cam driven, 1.1cc/rev
Injector                                  22.5cc/s                                  22.5cc/s, optimized spray targeting
Fuel Rail                                 135cc, 150bar                         66cc, 200bar
Pressure Sensor                    200bar                                    260bar

All of this comes from here (in case none of you have read this before):

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~annastef/papers_FFV/Optimally_Controlled_FFV-final.pdf

I also have a copy of the PowerPoint presentation that goes with this from the Federal Government Review (this research was federally funded).

If someone from BOSCH is coming (from the Cobalt thread), then I hope it's Hakan Yilmaz.  He's the guy in the know currently at BOSCH when it comes to the LNF and Flex Fuel.

It's been my understanding since 2010 that Walbro made the pump used in the testing cited in this report.  I don't know who made the modified pistons though.  I've been told there are two pumps, one in the HHR SS used for testing, the other on a bench conducting life testing... life testing was due to complete March 2012... hmm... that's now.

good info!!!