Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?

[Gentleman Jack]

Again,  please don't forget to consider pipe size when performing calculations of flow rate, pressure and friction loss.....  Larger pipe equals more volume. You want more volume.  Combine that with the better supply and pow. Especially if this is such a rare and limited issue. You may only need to get thru a split second of time ( that one hard right bend when your just off the brakes and back in the throttle full tilt for a blink)

But what do I know. The school of hard knocks kicked me out.

[miller11386]

First - the in tank system is OEM. I, for one, am not so bold  to believe that I am smarter than GM engineers. Second - drag strip, no. Blasts to equivalent speeds on the road can not be discussed here. FWIW - I am not a moron. I know a little bit of stuff. The "school of hard knocks" is a brutal teacher.

So you haven not changed shocks or tires either correct? and no alignment adjustments? nor tuning ? Because with that argument, your car should be 100% stock.

Auto X is not what GM engineers have in mind when they build a car....

[rlhammon]

awesome tazz! be sure to take some good pics! I want to get my machinists and engineer friends brains turning on this one.

Yes please... I could use some detailed pictures of all portions of the outside.  I have someone looking at this currently who is interested in doing this work, but they need to see some details.

In fact, if anyone has / knows of pictures of the spring side of the HPRP can you post them or pass them on to me (or a link) please?

[Gentleman Jack]

So you haven not changed shocks or tires either correct? and no alignment adjustments? nor tuning ? Because with that argument, your car should be 100% stock.

Auto X is not what GM engineers have in mind when they build a car....

The world is going to end. I agree with Miller.

[miller11386]

Yes please... I could use some detailed pictures of all portions of the outside.  I have someone looking at this currently who is interested in doing this work, but they need to see some details.

In fact, if anyone has / knows of pictures of the spring side of the HPRP can you post them or pass them on to me (or a link) please?

I have looked for a while, but no avail... who knows someone at GM that has access to prints?? maybe info2x on the BB?

[joshmass]

Yes please... I could use some detailed pictures of all portions of the outside.  I have someone looking at this currently who is interested in doing this work, but they need to see some details.

In fact, if anyone has / knows of pictures of the spring side of the HPRP can you post them or pass them on to me (or a link) please?

I have some super high resolution photos I found somewhere but they're at home. I'll email them to you later tonight.

[tazz]

awesome tazz! be sure to take some good pics! I want to get my machinists and engineer friends brains turning on this one.

I'll do better and I'll send the pump to you. 
The catch is that if you succeed I'll want the pump back so I can use it.

[miller11386]

I'll do better and I'll send the pump to you. 
The catch is that if you succeed I'll want the pump back so I can use it.

Sounds like a plan to me

Take some pics either way... get the wheels turning here too

[Sol Asylum]

The world is going to end. I agree with Miller.

It gets worse, I agree with you agreeing with Miller...

[rlhammon]

I have some super high resolution photos I found somewhere but they're at home. I'll email them to you later tonight.

Thank you... pictures are off to a shop who is looking into this.

[rlhammon]

OK... first off, thanks for the help on the pictures, that provided what was needed to get interest.  And thanks for the lead Josh.  I did touch base with the company you mentioned to me, and that's lead to someone else, who is actually interested.

Long story short for everyone following/lurking on the thread.  Josh had talked to a shop last year that "reworks" HPFP to get higher flow (simple terms, but it works).  That company was not interested in working on this BOSCH pump, but they did connect me to a company who is interested.  Basically what happens is as I described earlier.  The HPFP gets remachined, and new internals are added, with the result of flowing more fuel per cycle.

The shop is looking for three fuel pumps in order to start a teardown / investigation and determine a course of action.  What I'm looking for is leads on finding pumps.  I'll purchase them and work with the shop to see what we can come up with, but any help in locating three pumps would be appreciated.

[snaponbob]

OK... first off, thanks for the help on the pictures, that provided what was needed to get interest.  And thanks for the lead Josh.  I did touch base with the company you mentioned to me, and that's lead to someone else, who is actually interested.

Long story short for everyone following/lurking on the thread.  Josh had talked to a shop last year that "reworks" HPFP to get higher flow (simple terms, but it works).  That company was not interested in working on this BOSCH pump, but they did connect me to a company who is interested.  Basically what happens is as I described earlier.  The HPFP gets remachined, and new internals are added, with the result of flowing more fuel per cycle.

The shop is looking for three fuel pumps in order to start a teardown / investigation and determine a course of action.  What I'm looking for is leads on finding pumps.  I'll purchase them and work with the shop to see what we can come up with, but any help in locating three pumps would be appreciated.

Wasn't there an earlier post that listed a bunch of units in salvage yards?

[Arabas]

OK... first off, thanks for the help on the pictures, that provided what was needed to get interest.  And thanks for the lead Josh.  I did touch base with the company you mentioned to me, and that's lead to someone else, who is actually interested.

Long story short for everyone following/lurking on the thread.  Josh had talked to a shop last year that "reworks" HPFP to get higher flow (simple terms, but it works).  That company was not interested in working on this BOSCH pump, but they did connect me to a company who is interested.  Basically what happens is as I described earlier.  The HPFP gets remachined, and new internals are added, with the result of flowing more fuel per cycle.

The shop is looking for three fuel pumps in order to start a teardown / investigation and determine a course of action.  What I'm looking for is leads on finding pumps.  I'll purchase them and work with the shop to see what we can come up with, but any help in locating three pumps would be appreciated.

great news...if only i could help...

[SKY888]

will I get an "upgraded HPFP"  if I send you my HPFP? 

[tazz]

Not sure what you need.
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[Dr. Gronk]

It gets worse, I agree with you agreeing with Miller...

oh no!!... has the assimilation begun? Does the theory that people who live with pets long enough start to resemble their pets hold true?!?!?!  Who is the pet and who is the owner?!?!?! Will Jessica discover Chester's affair...? Will Benson care?!?!?!?! These questions—and many others—will be answered in the next episode of....

[tazz]

These questions—and many others—will be answered in the next episode of....SOAP

[rlhammon]

Not sure what you need.

Nor do I, but I sent the pictures on as I'm sure they can only help.  If I get any specific requests I'll let you know to see if you can snap them.  Right now they are interested, and looking to get their hands on three pumps to investigate.

I saw Bob's post... I had missed the listing of pumps out there.  I'll see what that turns up for this "project".

[miller11386]

Sounds like a race now

I will be working toward a solution within the next few weeks. Thanks Tazz! I have a few fellow engineers on board to help and a machinist at work who can help me make new parts. (and not to mention a full fab and weld shop to make parts)

From what I can tell, it seems like it can be done, but I doubt it will be cheap. However if you are in need of a larger volume HPFP, its going to cost way more to get the stuff to overspray to go beyond, so this should be a bit easier than that. I cant wait to get started

[tazz]

Well I just mailed it off to Miller and he should get it on Monday.

[SKY888]

with this bigger volume "HPFP pump"......you'll end up getting a bigger volume "lpfp pump"....and fuel lines........and so forth

the beauty of ...........the quest for more power 

[miller11386]

I really hope I can come up with a hpfp solution. The secondary rails are ok, however I would prefer one fuel delivery method.

I am just curious, I wonder how many people would actually buy a "bigger badder" hpfp? Off the top of my head, SOB, Rlhammon, Joshmass,Sky888, and myself are the only ones who really need a pump. Could be a costly affair unless another market is on tap to sell the pumps to. From what im understanding, its probably going to be costly...

[rlhammon]

I really hope I can come up with a hpfp solution. The secondary rails are ok, however I would prefer one fuel delivery method.

I am just curious, I wonder how many people would actually buy a "bigger badder" hpfp? Off the top of my head, SOB, Rlhammon, Joshmass,Sky888, and myself are the only ones who really need a pump. Could be a costly affair unless another market is on tap to sell the pumps to. From what im understanding, its probably going to be costly...

From the two shops that I've talked to who do this work... you're talking about $1,000 or a little more.  Now, that sounds crazy at first, but when you look into what needs to be done to work around the limitation... it's not a bad price.

As for the market... anyone wanting power.  I could see this opening up fueling for larger turbos, and don't forget the crazy Cobalt crowd.  Some people have been going to the ZZP cams with a fourth lobe, those folks could do without the cam change... granted the cam is doing some performance work for them.  My issue with the fourth lobe for the HPFP is the loss of pump life.

Think about it, if the life of the spring plunger in the HPFP is 10 million cycles.  With 3 lobes, that's 3.3M rotations.  Adding a fourth lobe brings you down to 2.5M rotations of the cam.  I've thought about a solution where a sleeve is placed over the three lobes to convert to four lobes.  Not sure if there is clearance for anything like that, but it was a solution path to achieve what the ZZP cam could do without changing the cam (which Bob and I can't do).  I just didn't like the loss of functional life on the HPFP with that solution.  Increasing the volumetric output of the HPFP per cycle seems like the better engineering path.

Best of luck to you and your investigation, I will certainly be interested in the outcome.

[Sol Asylum]

I haven't really looked at this but could some sort of adaptor be made that would let you run two pumps in place of the one thus doubling output?

[kennysabarese]

That is being attempted with the v6 Camaro