Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?

[kennysabarese]

Plust the price difference from a 5th injector vs a 2nd fuel rail really isnt that drastic.

Really? How much we talking?

[miller11386]

$289 for the split sec controller
$140+ (depending on the brand and lb of injectors)
$275 for center feed fuel rail (2.4L DDM)

So its $704 vs $499     

(assuming that manifold labor is the same)

For the $200 bucks, I will gladly go to a 4 injector setup on a boost controlled progressive spray rather than a meth controller.

[kennysabarese]

Cool. Nice.

[miller11386]

the other big bonus is that most aftermarket intakes have the injector ports already in place. so its basically plug and play if you get another intake mani.

[elff]

Actually looks like Miller agrees.

My question is.
Why is it acceptable for Meth kits to only use one nozzle but everyone thinks the 5th injector won't distribute fuel properly.   If the latter was the case, we would have a lot of blown up engines with Meth. There are way too many examples of meth kits in the world, for out platform and other platform that show the single injector does work. 
We also have High HP engine examples with stock HPFP and LPFP working fine. 

[miller11386]

im not saying that it wont work. There are plenty of folks that have them work without issues. I have just seen too many cars gum up injectors on E85. (which I would like to use as my race gas)

Also, with the route im going, which probably includes a fabricated intake mani (which already has injector bungs in it) why would I take the time to plug them and reweld a central injector compared to running 4 injectors?

[elff]

In that case it doesn't make sense, but that it completely different than saying the 5th Injector doesn't work, which some people believe. 
[Not you from your last couple of posts]

[miller11386]

Many people say something "doesnt work" when they really mean "it's not the most optimal solution"

IE: Ductape will hold your mirror on, however it is not optimal.

[SKY888]

Actually looks like Miller agrees.

My question is.
Why is it acceptable for Meth kits to only use one nozzle but everyone thinks the 5th injector won't distribute fuel properly.   If the latter was the case, we would have a lot of blown up engines with Meth. There are way too many examples of meth kits in the world, for out platform and other platform that show the single injector does work.   

if you want a SAFE full blown engine.............you will not prefer a single Meth injector kit VS. a Meth port injection.

check out engines that have a meth PORT injectors (one small injectors on each manifold runner).

equal distribution on each cylinder is key.


The same concept applies to adding more fuel in our DI engines.    5th injector kit will "work".     But if you are already spending too much money on your engine build....why save a couple of hundred dollars on a fuel system?

PI injection will be safer/accurate compared to 5th injection.

HTH

[miller11386]

^^ my sentiments exactly. Fueling is no place to skimp! nor is race oil. Its the little things that keep a high hp car on the road

[SKY888]

sorry to be off topic, but this is a perfect example of a LEGIT meth injection system for a 6 cylinders.

its a port injection set-up and will probably cost $1500 for this meth kit.
A single injection meth kit....will not stand a chance against this kit 

same thing will apply with a "5th injector kit"  VS.  "Port Injector Fuel Kit"

[elff]

You can also solve the fuel issues on a 600hp kappa by purchasing a CTS-V.

I figured I'd throw that out there if we are going to just go overkill and completely change the discussion

[SKY888]

it's not overkill.

it's just a more appropriate way to do it in a LNF platform.....

[elff]

Installing a 6 cylinder meth kit on a 4 cylinder is the appropriate thing?  Seems like it wouldn't fit and then if it did, like 2 cylinders would be getting too much fuel.

Things are getting blown out of proportion now.  Not worth continuing the discussion if it's just going to be thrown to extremes.  I personally don't think throwing out everything is a solution.  It's a rip out and replace.  I also don't think that benefits the community as that is not something that 90% of the people with the fuel issue are going to consider.  The majority of those people are not trying to solve a 600+hp situation.  The LnF platform is DI.  Changing to PI IMHO is less appropriate.  At that point, you might as well just do the V8 upgrade as it too is a swap, but it's one that is proven and in the long run, gonna be about the same price when you factor in everything especially time.

Also, I don't think the muti port injection systems make the 5th injector system not work. 

I'll let the 500+hp 5th injector car that is actually able to be driven speak for itself.  It's all about how it's implemented and if done properly, it can, and does work. 

[SKY888]

I guess........you missed my point.

Those are only photos, where I'm showing an EXAMPLE of meth port injection on a 6 cylinder.

Aquamist have meth port injection kit for a 4, 6, and 8 cylinder.

so with an LNF application, of course you'll get the 4 port injection kit 

[SKY888]

The LNF is DI.


with my FUEL port injection kit, I'm not making the LNF into a PI system.   It is still a DI system until the stock fuel system can handle which is only around 400-420whp.    Before maxing out the stock fuel system, my secondary fuel sytem (PI) will add more fuel to reach my power goals.  So during that time, both the DI and PI are working together.

Everytime I go to a certain boost/power level the secondary fuel system can turn ON and OFF depending on the need.
and the DI is always active on high boost or low boost.

If you want the 5th injector kit....pls do so!     I'm not stopping you from using it, since it will still work.

Will it be better than PI?  Hell NO!!!

[elff]

I got it, just being sensationalist because Your car is not the norm and not what this thread is about. 
(It's also not running so that removes it twice  )

You actually answered something without realizing it.
The people having the fueling issue have 400hp or less kappas and from your statement, you seem to think the pumps should be adequate. 
Personally, I think it's a tune issue

When I get my Dyno results 1 week from Saturday, I'll let that speak for itself.   If my airflow at upper rpm is any indication, I should now be in the 400hp club but I am going to prove that before I put it in my signature.
I'm all about results vs theory

[SKY888]

yup, its not about my car.   

If you look at my responses...........I just answered you question:
My question is.
Why is it acceptable for Meth kits to only use one nozzle but everyone thinks the 5th injector won't distribute fuel properly.   If the latter was the case, we would have a lot of blown up engines with Meth. There are way too many examples of meth kits in the world, for out platform and other platform that show the single injector does work.   

if you want to be in the "400hp club"....go for it.  Not stopping you

from your responses, I observed that you were assuming WRONG about my fuel set-up  (converting it to PI and no longer DI)............and I just cleared things out.


PI > 5th injector kit......  a theory?   
come on now.   Lots of results out there.   May not be in the LNF platform, but there are alot of cars out there showing real results

[elff]

I was not arguing PI vs 5th
I was stating a 5th injector is a proven real world working solution to add a small amount of extra fuel in a lot of non blown engines.

Can you throw a crap load of money at the solution to implement something better.  Yes.  You can do that with anything.  But that wasn't my point and it doesn't make the non expensive solution into a non working solution.

[SKY888]

crap load of money?

Miller already stated the difference in prices

$200 difference for a safer and more accurate fuel delivery for an expensive modded engine...............is a safer bet 

$289 for the split sec controller
$140+ (depending on the brand and lb of injectors)
$275 for center feed fuel rail (2.4L DDM)

So its $704 vs $499     

(assuming that manifold labor is the same)

For the $200 bucks, I will gladly go to a 4 injector setup on a boost controlled progressive spray rather than a meth controller.

[elff]

Those prices are theory.  Let's wait until the car is running and the actual part list and labor are totaled before saying that is the actual cost.  I really don't want to use a second non operational car as an example.

Not to mention I was not directly referring to any system in particular,  I was simply stating that you can throw a lot of money at a solution, but that does not invalidate a cheaper solution
It was also driven by the system you posted a picture of and your proposed one.  Both way more expensive.

I'll end my comments tonight with this last statement

I'll find more value in this discussion when either you or miller have running cars with your proposed solutions. 

In the meanwhile, I will continue to drive my kappa on a daily basis proving that I have infinitely more hp than the both of you combined.
 

[SKY888]

yeah, I got negative whp right now, unfortunately 


but it doesn't mean that my fuel solution will not be more safe and accurate than a 5th injector kit.

oh by the way, you want a RUNNING LNF example that is using PORT FUEL INJECTION?  i'll give you two:
- greaseyjockey
- BTF

both of them are using Port fuel injection using microsquirt as the controller for about 3 years now

they are not active forum members.....but both have gxp and running more than 450whp 1.5- 2 yrs ago.    I'm not sure now how much power they have now.

hopefully examples such as BTF and greaseyjockey will give you "value" in our discussion.   

and for the record, greaseyjockey spent less compared to the $499 (5th injector kit)......lol!!! 

Since you keep on dissing our non-running cars 


P.S.
another vendor, and a couple of cobalt LNF owners also have port fuel injection.

[miller11386]

Oh elff.

Why must you poke a sore bear?


Hoping to get a friday update today about my non- running car. We shall see how much longer until it fires up. Either way I am sure by the time I see you @ SMMM9 Ill be good to go.

[joshmass]

sorry to be off topic, but this is a perfect example of a LEGIT meth injection system for a 6 cylinders.

its a port injection set-up and will probably cost $1500 for this meth kit.
A single injection meth kit....will not stand a chance against this kit 

same thing will apply with a "5th injector kit"  VS.  "Port Injector Fuel Kit"

That looks familiar

The only difference is that my setup sprays into the cold side charge pipe (2 nozzles installed at 90 degrees from each other) at a distance to the intake manifold that allows it to be mixed evenly into the air stream before being injected into the cylinders.

I have plans to use this system to spray E60 at some point in the future instead of meth just to see what happens.

[SKY888]

Josh....it just makes me salivate everytime I look at my pathetic AEM meth kit............and look at your set-up.....lol


but first things first........you need to have your block fixed! 

by the way............your Aquamist system is Ethanol compatible?