Author Topic: European vs North American tuning for LNF (Read 25806 times)

SKY888 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:05:39 PM »

Problem sometimes with Kappa owners....they have very limited "tuners" that they know of.

Besides DDM and WERKS.
I'll just name a couple of good LNF tuners out there:

CCSS3
GMtech
Terminator
GDub
Matt
BTF
BYT
IamBroke
Area47

Those are the only tuners out there, that I'll trust to tune my car.

I want the tuner to be able to tune the car pre-throttle, cam phasing/timing....etc......on a EDDY current dyno.

And not just WOT tuning

miller11386 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:07:23 PM »

Yup it always helps when your tuner works on the cars as well.

Kagem · « **Reply #52 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:32:57 PM »

No intention to judge other's opinion, i respect every one's. And no tuner is perfect, many cross the line at some point, and mistakes are for humans. Of course one wouldn't say that if his engine went bad from a tune, the bleeding one blames the abuser. There are definitely better tuners than others, or you can say there are tuners that take different parameters into consideration when tuning. Sometimes in order for a tuner to make one step forward and accomplish something more, he has to risk, and someone has to be the guinea pig. If it turns into an innovation the tuner takes the reins, if it turns into a failure then he sticks with a bad reputation. We cannot avoid trusting our tuners, whoever they are, otherwise we wouldn't bother with this hobby....

elff · « **Reply #53 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:49:35 PM »

I hear ya, but ive also seen alot of real stupid things done by kappa owners.
One trifecta tuned owner is running 87 octane.
Would that be Vince's fault if the engine blew?

I can attest to half the people on your list. The other half I have no experience with so I will take your word.

I currently have a hpt tune so I have no vested interest.

SKY888 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 16, 2012, 10:02:30 PM »

Quote from: elff on March 16, 2012, 09:49:35 PM

I hear ya, but ive also seen alot of real stupid things done by kappa owners.
One trifecta tuned owner is running 87 octane.
Would that be Vince's fault if the engine blew?

That tune should be meant for a 87 octane............and not 93 octane.

so it doesn't matter if a kappa is running 87 octane, you know?

so if that 87 octane trifecta tune...........blew..........is it the kappa owners fault? or Trifecta?

tazz · « **Reply #55 on:** March 16, 2012, 10:52:28 PM »

Quote from: SKY888 on March 16, 2012, 09:05:39 PM

Problem sometimes with Kappa owners....they have very limited "tuners" that they know of.

Besides DDM and WERKS.
I'll just name a couple of good LNF tuners out there:

CCSS3
GMtech
Terminator
GDub
Matt
BTF
BYT
IamBroke
Area47

Those are the only tuners out there, that I'll trust to tune my car.

I want the tuner to be able to tune the car pre-throttle, cam phasing/timing....etc......on a EDDY current dyno.

And not just WOT tuning

I would have to agree and I recognize at least 5 right off hand that are over on HPT and know More about how the tables work together than MOST that say they can tune the LNF. Most if not all those guys will give you help if you need it and point YOU in the right direction but they also want YOU to understand the basic concepts of tuning and what exactly is going on when you change parameters.

LatinVenom · « **Reply #56 on:** March 17, 2012, 05:38:09 PM »

Antonio, sorry but to me the fault is on the owners.
Just like people and guns then try to blame the manufacturer.
This is all hear say, unless you were driving the car for a while and knew what all was involved.
Let me put it this way, once you start modding your car, the responsibly is square on your shoulders and no one else.
I am sure all the companies that have been with us for a while do their very best to give us a quality product, is up to each of us to take the risks that may or may not arise from their products.
Remember these are not large companies that have lots of money for R&D, although I am sure in the case of most of our older Vendors they do some R&D with their products.

SKY888 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 17, 2012, 07:40:41 PM »

Quote from: LatinVenom on March 17, 2012, 05:38:09 PM

Antonio, sorry but to me the fault is on the owners.
Just like people and guns then try to blame the manufacturer.
This is all hear say, unless you were driving the car for a while and knew what all was involved.
Let me put it this way, once you start modding your car, the responsibly is square on your shoulders and no one else.
I am sure all the companies that have been with us for a while do their very best to give us a quality product, is up to each of us to take the risks that may or may not arise from their products.
Remember these are not large companies that have lots of money for R&D, although I am sure in the case of most of our older Vendors they do some R&D with their products.

NOPE, If you're my tuner....and you gave me a tune....that will boost my stock turbo to 30psi.......and advance all the timing up the roof..............and I blew my engine. You're NOT a good tuner.

It might be my fault for believing in your tuning capabilities (which sucks!)..............but it proved my point that you're not a good tuner, and I shouldnt be claiming that you're the BEST tuner out there. Because you're not.

Look how WERKS do their tuning. They will tune a certain car at their shop...at the MAX potential at the dyno. But when they give it to the owner....they'll dial the tune back (lessen the boost for example).............to make sure that the owner doesn't blow up their engine. That's a good tuner that I can trust.

But if you're tuning an engine....that's about to blow in any minute......and give it to the customer to drive and boost to its max, and suddenly it blows. Then you're a bad tuner IMO.

That's all I can say

LatinVenom · « **Reply #58 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:24:57 PM »

The ONLY person that come here and defend himself is Vince.

elff · « **Reply #59 on:** March 18, 2012, 08:05:20 PM »

Quote from: SKY888 on March 16, 2012, 10:02:30 PM

That tune should be meant for a 87 octane............and not 93 octane.

so it doesn't matter if a kappa is running 87 octane, you know?

so if that 87 octane trifecta tune...........blew..........is it the kappa owners fault? or Trifecta?

All tunes pretty much come with the understanding that you should be running at least 91 octane and the tune I was refering to is not an 87 Octane tune. So yes, if that engine blows, it's the Owners fault not the tuner.

Due to the limitation of the potential performance increase, it's not worth putting a tune on a car designed for 87 octane.
Only exception is if the tune is for gas mileage and not performance.
If not, there really isn't any point in getting a tune because you are severely limited the potential gain.

2.0 tspeed · « **Reply #60 on:** March 18, 2012, 08:36:03 PM »

Vince does not offer the infini boost anymore,
He's been doing big things with the buicks, cruze, sonic and now the new Malibu he already has the ecu for it
He's been adding a bunch of new features like the intelliboost= never again blown engines
Here's what he's been up 2 if anybody is wondering
http://www.wot-tuning.com/forums/

snaponbob · « **Reply #61 on:** March 18, 2012, 08:44:41 PM »

Quote from: 2.0 tspeed on March 18, 2012, 08:36:03 PM

Vince does not offer the infini boost anymore,
He's been doing big things with the buicks, cruze, sonic and now the new Malibu he already has the ecu for it
He's been adding a bunch of new features like the intelliboost= never again blown engines
Here's what he's been up 2 if anybody is wondering
http://www.wot-tuning.com/forums/forum/2-general-discussion/

Specifically what are you linking to?

tazz · « **Reply #62 on:** March 18, 2012, 09:09:13 PM »

Just The General discussion home page on his website probably so we can see what he's been up too.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

2.0 tspeed · « **Reply #63 on:** March 18, 2012, 09:29:26 PM »

It's trifectas community it's new,
Is the link sending you somewhere different

2.0 tspeed · « **Reply #64 on:** March 18, 2012, 11:04:52 PM »

Link fixed

SKY888 · « **Reply #65 on:** March 19, 2012, 06:17:31 AM »

Quote from: 2.0 tspeed on March 18, 2012, 08:36:03 PM

Vince does not offer the infini boost anymore,

He's been adding a bunch of new features like the intelliboost= never again blown engines

I guess this will rest my case

Critterman · « **Reply #66 on:** March 19, 2012, 07:33:50 AM »

How do you guarantee that you will never blow an engine? Even GM doesn't do that, they just hedge their bets with a warrantee.

miller11386 · « **Reply #67 on:** March 19, 2012, 07:55:48 AM »

The best way to not blow up a motor is through knowledge and raw data while the motor is running. This is why most tuner cars have 40 billion gauges in them. Not because "gauges are cool" but more so the driver can keep an eye on things. Call it rice or whatever, but I think you have to be nuts to run a tuned car without at least an AFR gauge. Raw data tells the story. AFR, EGT, Boost pressure, Oil pressure, oil temp, and water temp gauges make life a lot easier to see if your motor is healthy.

IMO when you mod, you are assuming the risk on your shoulders. However there must be some trust and communication between the person tuning and the end user. The biggest problem is a lot of non-gearheads want their car to be faster, but want none of the responsibility.. this is why tuners get a bad rap. "Tuner XYZ blew up my motor" Well I don't agree with that either. You have to be involved in the process and understand the system. The biggest issue is that many tuners dont understand their customer's needs and knowledge.

For example: A good tuner will log and tune the car and make it run well. Sets the rev limiter at his standard 7k and moves on to the next one. Car did great in logs and had a steady AFR throughout the powerband.

A great tuner will understand that Joe Smith runs his car on the weekends and uses the car for a DD during the week. The great tuner also knows that Joe is an average driver, and some times gets a little bit crazy and in the heat of the moment may miss a shift. So the great tuner dropped the rev limiter down to 6500 just to be safe. The car still makes great power, but even when Joe rips it and misses third gear, the lash adjusters and springs stay in place.

There has to be an understanding between what a tuner is doing and what the end user's use. That is the problem I have with a lot of tuners that want to keep their "trade secrets" away from the end user. You have to realize that no matter how tricky the tuning, the information has to be conveyed to the customer in some degree, because in the end, its their car, and their responsibility.

I love the way my car is setup because if at any point I think "something is wrong" I can log it and see it for myself against a previous log. HPT is a wonderful tool. That being said, even if you don't have something to log with, basic gauges really help a lot. Whether its an aeroforce serial gauge, or a bunch of mechanical gauges, the data is what will save you in the end.

Critterman · « **Reply #68 on:** March 19, 2012, 12:31:38 PM »

Okay so without meaning to you proved my point there is no way to guarantee that an engine won't blow. You can make adjustments to safeguard it as much as possible, but you cannot stop me from power shifting 3rd gear at redline into second instead of 4th. Rev limiter isn't going to do a damn bit of good.

miller11386 · « **Reply #69 on:** March 19, 2012, 01:56:25 PM »

I agree 100% critter. However lowering the rev limiter allow for more safety margin in the motor in my example. And it would probably be pretty hard to get the car to go into 2nd at that high of RPM.

Also the closer your motor is to the "edge" the more careful the driver must be. One oops can be all it takes to turn a glorious high rpm pull to a pile of scrap metal.

elff · « **Reply #70 on:** March 19, 2012, 04:18:41 PM »

Both of your arguments help back up the point I am trying to make.
SO THANKS!!!

joshmass · « **Reply #71 on:** March 19, 2012, 04:53:48 PM »

This thread quickly turned into a Tuner bashing thread instead of the main point, didn't it?

I may be able to help get to the bottom of the "dip" at 3100 rpm when I get home. I have the data logs that correlate to the dyno runs we did at various boost levels. That should be able to tell me exactly what the timing (and other stuff) was during the dip. However, I thought that this was figured out at one point on the HPT forums, wasn't it? I'm gonna have to look again.

miller11386 · « **Reply #72 on:** March 19, 2012, 05:31:50 PM »

I think most of us are on the same page, we just describe it in different ways.

A "euro" tune is more about power delivery over the entire power band.. similar to an Auto X tune. you want the most torque for the longest duration

an "american" tune is more about peak numbers while getting as much out of the middle as time allows.

I am not bashing any tuners. I think all things being equal everyone has generally the same abilities, however some communicate the important facts better than others.

Ames Performance Tuning · « **Reply #73 on:** March 19, 2012, 09:52:42 PM »

Hi Folks,

Here is one of my Dyno Charts:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

For my driving style I enjoy my tune with power earlier. It makes corners and straight-line more fun for me on the street. I am not an autocross driver and would probably prefer a steadier power delivery in that application.

It is great we have tuning tools and options to fine tune for a person's particular application.

In regards to Trifecta, I have been a Trifecta dealer for a few years and have worked with Trifecta on many different applications. I would not work with a company that was not professional and did not offer a great product.

Trifecta has helped me troubleshoot many different mechanical problems outside of tuning. Vince not only knows the tuning aspect but understands the mechanics he is working with and their respective limitations. In many cases Trifecta buys the vehicle and tests the tunes and then beta tests with a select group of dealers. Trifecta has tuned all their vehicles more aggressively than what they resale and have not had a problem.

In regards to Infiniboost. Trifecta was one of the first tuners to figure out how to raise boost with the stock sensors on the LNF. It did not mean they tuned vehicles past an appropriate boost level. The LNF for example Trifecta tunes for a max boost around 22 psi in most cases.

The source of some of the FUD for Trifecta on the Cobalt SS forum is unsubstantiated and from someone purposely trying to demean Trifecta to further their tuning business. I do not have any information where Trifecta was the reason for an engine failure. Trifecta has tuned approximately 2200 Cobalt SS's and 635 kappa roadsters and takes their product very seriously. I also monitor my Solstice with an Aeroforce gauge and can attest the GMMP tune has more knock than the Trifecta tune.

I am sure there are many good tuners and some that are better for certain applications but Trifecta has brought us many features and shared with other tuners nice features like being able to toggle a tune. In addition, many other reputable companies rely on Trifecta tuning for their products.

Let's please continue to discuss the merits of different types of tuning. It is much more useful.

rktv · « **Reply #74 on:** March 22, 2012, 03:28:28 PM »

I can't give my opinion about LNF tuning in France, because there is not even forum about opel GT !!!!
But I only can say, i will take some informations here and use my own experience to mod my futur car !

I think i will bring it to BR-Performance, a famous remapper here.

http://www.br-performance.fr/fr-fr/reprogrammation/1-voitures/42-opel/2141-gt/2142-all/2143-2-0-t/?stage=1391

You can see the results in the links.

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Author Topic: European vs North American tuning for LNF (Read 25806 times)