Topic: Carbon's Epic Stereo Transformation

[Carbon Sky]

I gotta hear it sometime. Must be awesome!

It's still a work in progress, but it's definitely already sounding really good and will only get better.  I need to adjust the cross overs a bunch.  Since I last touched it I cut the highs down just right, but I'm crossing the sub and the clark over too low.

I've got the timing correction down.  Makes the sound very "stereo" like you're wearing headphones, as opposed to like the sound is coming from the middle of your dash.

Still being amazed constantly at the INE-S920HD.  The bluetooth is amazing.  So slick and easy to use.  The nav is fantastic, especially with the use of the VSS in tunnels (tried it out just to see and it does really work . . . slowed to almost a stop in the tunnel and the nav recognized this).  I'm not using a lot of the EQ stuff yet, but I'll get to it once things settle down a bit.

I still have to finish off the auto headlight override wiring, the wiring for the cooling fan, the wiring for the gauges, and find the freakin antenna adapter I somehow lost during this huge project.  Not that it's a huge deal at like $15 ish, but still freaking annoying.

[Carbon Sky]

It's official, the GMOS-100 does not function properly on my car.  Couldn't get the steering wheel controls to work properly, even after the programming procedure.  I spent 3 hours working on it, then decided to call the tech support.  Apparently, even though Metra says the GMOS-100 works on our car "they have never had anyone with my specifications to get all features to work".  Gee that would have been nice to say when their application guide says it does, including the documentation that comes with the unit.  I could not get the door chimes and turn signal to work either, but I could have lived without those.

So I put in a Scosche GM13SR I had as a back up (not all that surprised and glad that I had it) and will be getting a separate steering wheel adapter.  Still haven't found the antenna adapter so I ordered another.

And I learned something odd about the "radio" circuit from the fuse panel in the passenger side foot well.  When I wired in the replacement Scosche wiring harness, I went over the fuse panel layout, and figured well "radio" should be appropriate for switched 12V, and went with it.  Well apparently that circuit never dies.   Off that circuit, and the door opening does not kill the radio.  In fact, that circuit doesn't even time out.  Either I've got a weird fuse panel, or the radio on/off power is controlled by the BCM, but it seems at least on my car, the radio circuit in the fuse panel stays live.

[Sly Bob]

I had to go back and see what steering wheel interface I used a few years ago when I did my DNX9960. I used the PAC interface at the time as I believe that's all that was available, works great though even today.

Glad you are able to work through all the issues with the install. Sure looks sharp and I bet it sounds as good as it looks.

Labour day weekend, you should go to the mod meet in Mayland and show everyone there. When you come down the QEW we could hook up and caravan down. I know it's a long way down but it's always a blast!

[ophidia31]

I've got the timing correction down.  Makes the sound very "stereo" like you're wearing headphones, as opposed to like the sound is coming from the middle of your dash.

You need depth of field and width of the sound stage, not like your wearing headphones and confined to the interior of the vehicle. Not sure what your plans for the vehicle are when youre done, competing or not, but youd be knocked severe points for something like that. But if its just for your entertaiment, then whatever floats your boat. 

[TomatoSoup]

And I learned something odd about the "radio" circuit from the fuse panel in the passenger side foot well.  When I wired in the replacement Scosche wiring harness, I went over the fuse panel layout, and figured well "radio" should be appropriate for switched 12V, and went with it.  Well apparently that circuit never dies.   Off that circuit, and the door opening does not kill the radio.  In fact, that circuit doesn't even time out.  Either I've got a weird fuse panel, or the radio on/off power is controlled by the BCM, but it seems at least on my car, the radio circuit in the fuse panel stays live.

Nope, normal operation.  The radio always has power (for clock etc.).  The GMLAN connection tells it when to turn off - when door's opened etc.

[Carbon Sky]

Nope, normal operation.  The radio always has power (for clock etc.).  The GMLAN connection tells it when to turn off - when door's opened etc.

Well there is a constant power supply, already in the harness, just no switched supply, so I tapped that from the fuse panel.  I figured the BCM turned the "radio" circuit on and off and would be my switched power.  Guess not.  No biggie, figured it out pretty quickly that something was up when the radio wouldn't power off when the door opened.

I had to go back and see what steering wheel interface I used a few years ago when I did my DNX9960. I used the PAC interface at the time as I believe that's all that was available, works great though even today.

Glad you are able to work through all the issues with the install. Sure looks sharp and I bet it sounds as good as it looks.

Labour day weekend, you should go to the mod meet in Mayland and show everyone there. When you come down the QEW we could hook up and caravan down. I know it's a long way down but it's always a blast!

I have a GMOS ASWC, universal steering wheel control module ordered, so I hope that will take care of that.

I'm going back to school for a masters of engineering (mechanical) this fall.  First time in a few years since I've been in school, so won't be able to swing a labour day weekend event this year.  Returning students at my uni start classes in late Aug.

[Carbon Sky]

You need depth of field and width of the sound stage, not like your wearing headphones and confined to the interior of the vehicle. Not sure what your plans for the vehicle are when youre done, competing or not, but youd be knocked severe points for something like that. But if its just for your entertaiment, then whatever floats your boat. 

All depends on what you're going for.  Many home audiophiles tend to like a "soundstage".  Or a board roughly in front of your face, making music at you.  And to be honest, I do not like what many audiophiles like in this respect.  I like to create a situation in which you feel as though you are inside a large sphere, and the entire sphere is making sound, firing inwards towards the center where your head is.  Most audiophiles can never get in a speaker setup what they want and get from a good headphone setup.  That's why a good set of headphones can freak you out when you're watching a movie, and provide way better "surround sound" without a very high end home setup.

In fact with timing correction, it really pulls that front left channel further away from you and giving you "depth" that you just can't get without timing correction.  Without it, the music sounds like it's mostly coming from the middle of my dash.  With it, and depending on the recording, it sounds like music is almost textural . . . thick, like you could touch it in the air.

After all the sound deadening as well, with all the windows up, I swear, the loudest intrusion of road noise now comes from the back window area.

[ophidia31]

Surround sound and musical reproduction are two completely different animals. Its alot to get into and why there are many books on the subject. For cars though it is very difficult to achieve the best setup and never going to happen in a kappa. There is just too little room and too much in the way. One of the main reasons I wont even try anything in this car and will probably just go with a speaker and amp change eventually and thats it. I mostly go for musical reproduction when doing the setups in my vehicles with height about the eyes and depth out over the hood and width past the mirrors. You can close your eyes, listen to the music and point out musical instruments as if they were on a stage many feet in front of you. It can be done with a single pair of components and a subwoofer. But like you said, these kinds of things are all speaker placement and time alignment. And like I said, whatever floats your boat. I like discussing this stuff since not alot of people are into it anymore these days.

[Carbon Sky]

Surround sound and musical reproduction are two completely different animals. Its alot to get into and why there are many books on the subject. For cars though it is very difficult to achieve the best setup and never going to happen in a kappa. There is just too little room and too much in the way. One of the main reasons I wont even try anything in this car and will probably just go with a speaker and amp change eventually and thats it. I mostly go for musical reproduction when doing the setups in my vehicles with height about the eyes and depth out over the hood and width past the mirrors. You can close your eyes, listen to the music and point out musical instruments as if they were on a stage many feet in front of you. It can be done with a single pair of components and a subwoofer. But like you said, these kinds of things are all speaker placement and time alignment. And like I said, whatever floats your boat. I like discussing this stuff since not alot of people are into it anymore these days.

Yah, on my last car, I had 3rd order crossovers and 3 ways up front, with 2nd order 2 way components in the rear, same amps, and similar style of install.  Sounded great.  When I got rid of that car, I went about 4 years on the stock stereo, always thinking what you were.  No point in doing a stereo.  Finally decided, it wouldn't be that expensive with the 3 amps covered, and I was looking for an integrated bluetooth, nav, aud/vid setup.  So really the only thing I had to spring for on top of what I would have bought (the deck) was the speakers, and a shit load of time and labour.

I got what I wanted out of it.  A quieter car, with a kick ass stereo.  I've never been a fan of having the "soundstage" of a board playing music at you from in front of your face.  I like an all encompassing sound with a lot of time correction typically, but besides some adjustments on the crossovers that came with the speakers themselves, I will have minimal EQ going, the way I like it.  It's still not totally done yet since I'm still not done with the pod.  Got interrupted by having to move recently.  So it's buying curtain rods and draperies, and shelving, and setting up the garage, etc, etc. 

[Carbon Sky]

Finally got the pod wired up and installed.  The only thing I have left is to wire up a switch to control the colour change and to install the back plate (started raining).  I'm 99% sure I want it blue daytime (much easier to read in bright light than the red), and red night time (I like reds/ambers for night interior lighting for better night vision).  Here's a night shot.



Will be getting a Metra ASWC steering wheel control module next week.  And I swear I hear a little alternator whine.  My fiance doesn't really notice, but I swear I do.  So I got an Stinger ground loop isolator for good measure.  I have so much 4 gauge, and 8 gauge, and 3 amps, 4 pairs of RCAs in such a tight package, I'm not surprised to have some whine.  I can only really hear it with the car not running, and the volume turned down clearly.  I swear I sometimes hear it while driving.  Not costing me much to throw them in so, why not.

I hacked up the smart cord from the old Escort Redline to power the Beltronics STi Magnum.  I tucked the remains up under the receiver cup for the pin on the front of the convertible top so that just the LED and button sticks out.  I think I will snip off the green LED, and turn off the display on the unit itself, so that only that red LED will blink and the audio will sound.  Don't think I really need the green one on all the time.

Here's the Alpine bluetooth mic right beside the hacked smartcord.  Like I said, will cut off the green LED.


Upper dash is already back in, still waiting on the ASWC before I can button up the bottom of the dash.  I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow.

[Carbon Sky]

Summary of Components:

Headunit: Alpine INE-S920HD


Most important features for me:
- plays media off a USB stick
- very fast (instantaneous) response to touch/buttons
- good clear bluetooth that can be used with the top down
- up to date, and fast response navigation (beats my dad's less than a year old higher end Garmin for sure)
- good DAC, and processing (parametric EQ, time correction, sub phasing, cross overs, etc)

Front Speakers:

Alpine SPR-60C
6.5" woofer, 1" component tweeter
110W RMS, 330W Peak, 4 ohm

I've always been a fan of Alpine's sound.  Like a lot of higher end stuff, they are a tad bright out of the box, but the crossovers can easily tune that out.


Front Amp:

Soundstream 500SX
250W x 2 at  4 ohm

Rear speakers:

Aura 4000RPM 4" 2way, 4 ohm
Soundstream 500SX

Tactile Transducer:

Peak force: 216 lbs

Amp for rear speakers and tactile transducer:

Alpine MRV-F540
80W x 2 for the Aura 4" speakers at 4 ohm
160W x 1 for the tactile transducer at 4 ohm

Subwoofer:

Alpine SWR-T10
10" shallow mount sub
600W RMS, 1800W peak, 4 ohm

Subwoofer Amp:

Rockford Fosgate 800a2
960W x 1 at 4 ohm

Capacitor:

Soundstream SCX-4
4 Farad

Power:
- Audiobahn 4 AWG power and ground cable
- 12 AWG speaker cable
- upgraded grounds

Sound damping:
- 1 gallon Second Skin Spectrum

- ~8-10 square feet of poly fiber non-woven sound damping (mostly in doors and trunk)
- 4 square feet of dynamat
- 4 square feet of 1/2" closed cell sound absorbing foam with a felt sound absorbing liner

[Critterman]

Please come back with a post review about 6 months from now.  Some of the Alpine reviews I read on Crutchfield were less than flattering.  Can't remember what models.

[Carbon Sky]

Please come back with a post review about 6 months from now.  Some of the Alpine reviews I read on Crutchfield were less than flattering.  Can't remember what models.

Will do.  Any problems in particular to keep an eye out for?  This is like my 4th or 5th Alpine deck I've used regularly, and none has ever been an issue.  Literally, over 2 decades of Alpine experience, and the only problem I ever had was on my dad's IVA-205, and only with the navigation.  We had the "bluebird" nav module replaced (for free), and it's been great since.  And that line was one of Alpine's worst ever.  Their newest INE line is stellar, and they can't produce them fast enough.

[Critterman]

If I remember correctly it was the Navigation unit. 

[Carbon Sky]

If I remember correctly it was the Navigation unit. 

Ha ha ha, yah I'm very aware of those problems.  Which is why back before the INE line came out, I was about to go with my first non-Alpine head unit ever.  Up till the IVA-205 my dad has, Alpine had been making great decks.  But the module based "bluebird" nav was retarded.  It was intended so that you could remove that unit and use it as a standalone in any car.  But it definitely had problems.  Which is why when my dad started having problems with his (the nav screen would go blank, but everything else would work just fine), and took it back to the shop, they replaced it with a nav unit that only works inside the IVA head unit, and cannot function as a standalone nav, and it's been fine since.

The INA-W910 which was their flagship 7" touchscreen until recently, did away with the standalone/module based nav, and it's been fine since.  The newest INE line has a brand new nav setup.  it's pretty slick.  But will definitely report back, i.e. like the bullshit GMOS-100 which Metra says on their website on their applications list that it works on the kappa, and even says so on the paperwork that comes with it.  But you cannot get all functions to work on this unit on the kappa.

[Gentleman Jack]

Does this thing have AM?  I'd like to listen to Dr. Laura on that set up.

[Carbon Sky]

Does this thing have AM?  I'd like to listen to Dr. Laura on that set up.

Ha ha, actually, it has the typical AM/FM and HD radio built in as well.

While on a road trip to NYC last winter, we took my fiance's Mazda 3, and she likes satellite radio, so I put a unit in her car.  I almost never listen to radio, and play all my music through a USB stick.  But when on long road trips, I like satellite radio.  We even found ourselves listening to Dr. Laura on the way home from NYC ha ha ha.

[Gentleman Jack]

Seriously Carbon I was kidding. You should never admit that in public again.

[Carbon Sky]

Seriously Carbon I was kidding. You should never admit that in public again.

Ha ha ha, that's why I was laughing at my self.  My fiance and I just kept saying to ourselves in response to the callers, really?!?  We really just could not believe the situations these people created for themselves, and the fact that they can't deal with them.  Maybe we just lack empathy ha ha ha.

But yah, in terms of satellite radio, I never use it on a day to day basis like my fiance does.  But on road trips when you're going to pull like 9 hours in the seat, it's nice to have something other than what you brought in terms of music.  We probably spent most of our time on the electronic, hip hop, alt rock, and comedy channels.  But on a day to day basis, it's still radio, for the masses, and a lot of "pop"ular crap.

[Carbon Sky]

Well it's officially done!

Finally got a chance to break in the speakers a bit, do some tuning, and work out minor issues (like adding a ground loop isolator).  After some run time, a lot of the harshness went away, but I still felt like the setup was too bright for my ears.  Although 2 car audiophile friends of mine said it was just fine because it does get a little drowned out at speed, especially with the top down.  So I moved the jumpers to tune down the tweeters in the cross overs, and it's pretty much perfect to my ears right now.  I have almost no EQ going on (almost flat, minor bump in the woofer to subwoofer transition, and minor dip in the 16K range).  But I do have timing correction, and sub phasing going on.  Really does a lot to create perceived distance to speaker, and to fine tune the sweet spot of the sub.

Holy cow is it louder/clearer at highway speeds.  The monsoon system sounded like crap, but did play loud.  And even then, it was not loud enough with the top down at highway speeds.  Now, it's so much louder/clearer, it's a joy to listen to with the top down at highway speeds.  Even then I was hitting 140km/h, and it was a windy day, the stereo still sounded badass.

I finally finished up the back of the pod (1/4" hardboard, covered in 3M CF vinyl just like the front), and installed the ground loop isolator.  Because of the hooded area on the back of the pod, the detector head sits a little inwards, and in the shade of the hood.  So from the outside, you can't tell it's not uniformly black on the back of the detector at all.  Especially with the windshield creating reflections.

Now that everything is buttoned up, and running great, and I can finally just enjoy the car, it's just amazing.  Loving the GMPP shocks and ZOK springs, with the probeam, back bone, ZOK rear sway bar, and the new suede wheel.  And with all the sound dampening, man I swear, the exhaust just got WAY louder, same with the blow off noise.  And since I refreshed my laptop with a hard drive wipe after backing up, I finally got HPTuners setup again, and did a little tuning and logging.  Noticed my boost had dropped to about 19psi lately since I have the new gauge in my face.  Trying out some different spark timing . . . back up to 21 again, but let's see how long it lasts.

Here's an inside completed shot:


Gonna mention the centennial edition corvette wheel just because it feels AMAZING.  Exactly what I wanted, which was a suede/alcantara wheel, with a little more sponginess/give to it.

I have the red LED switch furthest to the left for a cooling fan I can run when I park the car out in the sun to cool the detector in the pod.  It uses very little power, and can easily run for 24 hours without draining the battery, and that light looks like an anti-theft light.

The switch beside it is for the detector.  Basically a main power switch.  I usually leave it on, and hooked up to accessory power.  The only button I press for the detector is the mute button up top in the pillar beside my bluetooth mic.

Then SPDT switch in the middle is for the auto-headlight override.  Position I is for fooling the system into thinking it is light out, middle position fools the system into thinking it is dark out.

Then 2 seat seater switches, then the stock traction control button.

The hardest part right now is finding music I like in very high bit rates, as anything less than CD quality is noticeable on this system.  It really loves high bit rate music.  I played the Eagles CD Hell Freezes Over in my car the other day for my pops, and it sounded wicked.

And so far, a few people that have felt the tactile transducer were a little scared by it   I love how it works in conjunction with the 10".

[SKY888]

looks good bro!!!


how's the tactile transducer that you used?  I personally used a pair of rockford's I-beams, and I really like them.   The pair of I-beams w/ my 8" sub......Feels like I have a pair of 12s lol.   


my other questions is......why did you go with a 4 farad capacitor, instead of just going with a small audio battery?


pls post photos of how you laid out the complete sound system in your trunk!     

thanks!

[Carbon Sky]

looks good bro!!!


how's the tactile transducer that you used?  I personally used a pair of rockford's I-beams, and I really like them.   The pair of I-beams w/ my 8" sub......Feels like I have a pair of 12s lol.   


my other questions is......why did you go with a 4 farad capacitor, instead of just going with a small audio battery?


pls post photos of how you laid out the complete sound system in your trunk!     

thanks!

I've been in cars with Aura bass shakers, which is what introduced me to these tactile transducers in the first place, and this 1 Clark hits harder than 2 Auras.  Apparently it's like 216 lbs of peak force that it can generate.  And based on that and power handling, it is more powerful than RF's i-beam, but I am only using one, and not 2 like you did.  Did you put both in the driver's seat?

I've sat in the passenger seat, and the 10" Alpine sub hits more than hard enough for the passenger seat.  As others have mentioned, some passengers don't even like the stock 8" monsoon sub kicking behind them . . . weirdos 

I went with the 4 farad cap instead of a second audio battery, because my over all draw is not that bad since I'm only using the 10" sub.  Mine combined peak wattage is about 1900W, and half of that is in the sub amp, and it's only powering the 10" thin sub, and not the 15" JBL GTI competition sub it used to power in my previous setup.  That setup destroyed batteries.  But with this setup, I barely dip the voltage unless I'm pounding it at a red light, which I never do.

2 of the amps are behind my seat, only the Alpine and the cap are in the trunk.  I think I have a picture of how it basically is setup, just without some of the wiring tidied up yet.  It basically looks like this now, but with the wiring tidied up.




So basically, you can see a little of the 4 gauge that runs to the cap, the amp, and the cap itself. 

[SKY888]

yes, I had my I-beams on each seat 

The reason being is....during car show competition, I always sit on my driver's seat.......and let the judge sit on the passenger side.   The judge will feel both the 8" sub and the I-beam..... 

Even driving by myself, I still believe that even if the other i-beam is on the passenger seat, it still adds to the overall tactile experience

About the battery, I'm assuming you're still using the stock battery?
I think that's more than enough for your set-up, and won't need any extra battery.

I added a small battery for my audio...........since I have a small braille battery for my engine.   That braille battery can't handle the load of my set-up at idle     Even if I upgraded my "big three" to zero gauge wiring........my dashlighting dims everytime my bass hits....during engine idle


anyways, good job with the sound set-up.   Must really sound good.


I need to learn more in tuning my sound system!   It's pretty decent......but I think it will benefit more with  some professional tweaking

[Carbon Sky]

yes, I had my I-beams on each seat 

The reason being is....during car show competition, I always sit on my driver's seat.......and let the judge sit on the passenger side.   The judge will feel both the 8" sub and the I-beam..... 

Even driving by myself, I still believe that even if the other i-beam is on the passenger seat, it still adds to the overall tactile experience

About the battery, I'm assuming you're still using the stock battery?
I think that's more than enough for your set-up, and won't need any extra battery.

I added a small battery for my audio...........since I have a small braille battery for my engine.   That braille battery can't handle the load of my set-up at idle     Even if I upgraded my "big three" to zero gauge wiring........my dashlighting dims everytime my bass hits....during engine idle


anyways, good job with the sound set-up.   Must really sound good.


I need to learn more in tuning my sound system!   It's pretty decent......but I think it will benefit more with  some professional tweaking

I got enough complaints from my fiance and other passengers about the "bass" from the stock monsoon setup, and I don't do shows/competitions, so putting a second transducer into the passenger seat just didn't make sense to me.  The single 10" pounds more than hard enough into that seat.  Plus a 10" sub has more than 50% more surface area than an 8" sub, so assuming all other factors are equal, it should put out about 150% as much bass as a similar 8".

Actually, I have since replaced my stock AC Delco with an Interstate Megatron battery with significantly more crank amps, and reserve capacity.  With the 4 farad cap, it seems to be just fine on the electrical system.  But the same 3 amps, with a 15" JBL GTi subwoofer with a magnesium basket used to destroy optima yellow tops.  I went through a battery every 1-2 years, and alternators every 2-3 years for a while.

In terms of "tuning" a lot of it goes into the install.  The way the speakers are installed, what's behind them, how much sound dampening, etc.  My car's general "sound character" is totally different now.  It used to be more wind/road noise, and a lot of it seemed to be coming from everywhere, floor, windshield, etc.  Now there's a lot less wind/road noise, but as a result, the exhaust/intake/blow off noises sound so much louder.

And the way a speaker is installed can make a shitty speaker sound great, and a great speaker sound shitty.  Ideally, the speaker should be mounted to MDF, and sealed air tight to its mount with sealant or speaker foam.  The goal at the end is to not use as little "tuning" as possible.  So that's why I like it when the setup sounds great to my ears without a lot of EQ.

If you have not played around with timing correction, definitely do.  I have 3 presets for timing correction.  One setup for me, one for the passenger, one for balanced left and right, and only timing adjustments back and forth.  It makes such a difference to the listening experience, it'll definitely wow those judges