Author Topic: V8 worth the costs?  (Read 113913 times)

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Offline miller11386

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2013, 08:17:55 AM »
Miller - are you trolling?  Have you been hanging around with the "supra is best car ever, 2jz best engine ever... crowd too much?

I am being real GJ. Look at all the dyno videos from other cars with LS3's... vettes, camaros, etc. Anything that is over 500hp has big cams, rockers, springs, retainers, super free flowing exhaust etc. I only want to provide accurate info for the avg Joe on the street who reads this and gets the false impression that if they put a used stock LS3 they will get 500hp... which is not the case. Is it possible with some internal work and a good tuner to crack 500hp? Absolutely, but that is not what I was  referring to and I have no clue the specs on what is in coopers car...... I am curious to see what the dyno sheet looks like on coopers car now.... anyone have a link?

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Offline cooper1340s

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #126 on: May 02, 2013, 08:25:54 AM »
I did not say 500 HP at the rear wheels, only at the crank. My car has a custom full dual SS/ceramic coated exhaust with high flow cats and small low restriction mufflers. It is enough to put more HP to the rear wheels than a stock Corvette LS3 puts to the crank. In real world conditions on the street, I have more power to the rear wheels than I can ever use or need. I also have 3.23 gears in the rear end, same as the Hot Rod Solstice, which makes my car more drievable on the street. It will still smoke the tires in the first 3 gears if I am not careful, but I can cruise 80MPH at 1750RPM in 6th gear. Car handles great and stops real well. It is more fun to drive than most cars I have driven and it is real easy to live with as a daily driver as long as you remember to be careful with the gas pedal application. My car was Stage III Supercharged before conversion and it was a fast, fun car to drive, but NOTHING like it is now. To me, it was WELL worth the cost of the conversion and I will be driving this car a long time. (Sorry Latin Venom, no cheap buy here).
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Offline miller11386

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #127 on: May 02, 2013, 09:36:16 AM »
I did not say 500 HP at the rear wheels, only at the crank. My car has a custom full dual SS/ceramic coated exhaust with high flow cats and small low restriction mufflers. It is enough to put more HP to the rear wheels than a stock Corvette LS3 puts to the crank. In real world conditions on the street, I have more power to the rear wheels than I can ever use or need. I also have 3.23 gears in the rear end, same as the Hot Rod Solstice, which makes my car more drievable on the street. It will still smoke the tires in the first 3 gears if I am not careful, but I can cruise 80MPH at 1750RPM in 6th gear. Car handles great and stops real well. It is more fun to drive than most cars I have driven and it is real easy to live with as a daily driver as long as you remember to be careful with the gas pedal application. My car was Stage III Supercharged before conversion and it was a fast, fun car to drive, but NOTHING like it is now. To me, it was WELL worth the cost of the conversion and I will be driving this car a long time. (Sorry Latin Venom, no cheap buy here).

I agree its definitely plenty of power for the rubber that fits under the car. That is probably the only thing that is truly lacking in the kappa v8 swap... You can make the power, but you cant get it on the ground without completely tubbing the car and reworking the frame... maybe going wide body with something from norm will be the next step to get something closer to a 315 tire under the car? Not sure if that you would see much of a performance return on that expense though....
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Offline GXPinKC

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #128 on: May 02, 2013, 09:44:30 AM »
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/hdrp  0607 1s7 pontiac solstice road test/viewall.html

 In a hurry, so if this has been posted previously please remove my post!
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Offline DaveOC

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #129 on: May 02, 2013, 10:01:27 AM »
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/hdrp  0607 1s7 pontiac solstice road test/viewall.html

 In a hurry, so if this has been posted previously please remove my post!

Fixed it:

http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/hdrp_0607_ls7_pontiac_solstice_road_test/viewall.html
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Offline Critterman

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #130 on: May 02, 2013, 10:56:32 AM »
tuning, it's all in the tuning.
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Offline ChopTop

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #131 on: May 02, 2013, 12:36:22 PM »
Makes you wonder if the old school method of frame reinforcement would be of any benefit?  Along w/street/drag tires.

Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #132 on: May 02, 2013, 08:18:31 PM »
Cooper's car was assembled by Dave at DDMWorks.  Dave has done a bit of his tuning magic on that LS3 Hot Cam, so that is where at least another 20 hp appears.    :thumbs:

Just as a quick side note, Coopers car put out around 430hp at the wheels, so the 500hp crank estimate is pretty conservative ;)
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #133 on: May 02, 2013, 10:51:57 PM »
Just as a quick side note, Coopers car put out around 430hp at the wheels, so the 500hp crank estimate is pretty conservative ;)

Would you stop letting facts get in the way if a good discussion please?
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2013, 11:08:46 AM »
Would you stop letting facts get in the way if a good discussion please?

Yeah like the fact that nothing is as good as a Corvette except that Vette's aren't good enough for Miller now.  I speculate that he's not going to be happy with any car, what do you think GJ?
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2013, 11:38:19 AM »
He really wants an Evo so he bought a supra.
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Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2013, 01:06:32 PM »
Well that's pretty logical, Supra has less letters then Corvette thus it's closer to Evo.
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Offline droptopsf98

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2013, 03:49:44 PM »
Just to keep a good debate going I want to throw in my .02. 

Everyone keeps talking about the hp to hp comparisons.  No one has acknowledged that not all HP is equal!  In order to make 400+ hp on any 4 cyl that came in this car you're looking at a sizeable turbo that would come with some lag.  The V8 torque curve starts much sooner, giving you more power over the RPM band.  Plus most people find a more linear power curve easier to control in a handling situation.  When I'm racing my car (stock other than a boost increase custom tune) I have to be very careful that my acceleration out of a corner doesn't give the turbo full spool or I'm spinning out.  The V8 engine would be a much smoother power curve making the transition to WOT much smoother and easier to handle since it isn't upsetting the car. 

Personally I won't put an LS anything in my car.  I'll buy the DIY kit, an L33 engine(all aluminum 5.3) from a Silverado for $700-1000 and then put some heads on it with better flowing intake/exhast manifolds and a mild cam.  Now I'm putting down better than LS power for what..6k total by the time you buy the T-56 as well.

Now if you're going to pay 15-20k for someone else to swap it I definitely feel that the value goes out the window.  NO ONE can acknowledge that a swap done by a professional is a swap of any monetary value.  It's for noise and showing off, nothing else.  If the noise and showing off is more important to you than the money in your pocket then yes...pay a professional to do the swap.  I've seen nothing but good reviews by the several individuals offering these swap services.  The installs are quality and very likely better than anything I could do myself.  (face it, we're not pro's)

Another thing to factor in is your end power goal.  If you only want to make 380whp, your best bet is to just stick to whatever 4 cyl came in your car and upgrade it to those numbers.  If you want to make 500whp reliably you're looking at upgrading the internals of your engine to handle what any V8 from the LS engine family bottom end can do in stock form.  At that power point the value starts tipping more towards the V8 if you're a DIY guy.

To the guy who thought his 3rd and 4th gen camaro's were a sports car I  :slap:  "My camaro handled really well."  Sure...for a heavyweight camaro.  Drive a similar year model corvette and I PROMISE you'll think the corvette handles better.  The corvette had less weight, better weight distribution and a FAR better suspension design.  The camaro is exactly what it was designed as...an american muscle car that was more motor than handling.  I don't hate camaro's at all, just acknowledge them for what they are.

I also attend that the V8 kappa would never have happened.  The Kappa can do something the F bodies could never do....carve corners.  A corner carving V8 Kappa competes DIRECTLY with the corvette.  The Kappa would be faster both in a straight line AND on a road course.  GM would very intelligently never allow that.  The v8 swap was built into the car PURELY for the enthusiasts that wanted to do so.

Offline wspohn

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2013, 04:01:02 PM »
Plus most people find a more linear power curve easier to control in a handling situation.

Agree - amateurs have an easier time with conventionally tuned engines. It takes someone with experience and talent to properly drive a high power turbo car on a road course - ask anyone that ran a BMW 2002 turbo back in the day - you had such bad lag you needed to estimate when the throttle would kick in and floor it half a corner before that. If you did it right, you went fast. If you anticipated by even 1/2 second, you usualoly spun off.  Fortunately things aren't that difficult today

To the guy who thought his 3rd and 4th gen camaro's were a sports car I  :slap:  "My camaro handled really well."  Sure...for a heavyweight camaro.  Drive a similar year model corvette and I PROMISE you'll think the corvette handles better.  The corvette had less weight, better weight distribution and a FAR better suspension design.  The camaro is exactly what it was designed as...an american muscle car that was more motor than handling.  I don't hate camaro's at all, just acknowledge them for what they are.

Agree again.  Two tons of ungainly fast assed power does not equal good handling, nor in my eyes good looks.  Anyone that thinks a Camaro is a sports car just doesn't understand the concept

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Offline ihawk95

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2013, 05:10:40 PM »
To the guy who thought his 3rd and 4th gen camaro's were a sports car I  :slap:  "My camaro handled really well."  Sure...for a heavyweight camaro.  Drive a similar year model corvette and I PROMISE you'll think the corvette handles better.  The corvette had less weight, better weight distribution and a FAR better suspension design.  The camaro is exactly what it was designed as...an american muscle car that was more motor than handling.  I don't hate camaro's at all, just acknowledge them for what they are.

I'm the "guy" you are referring to.  Please re-read what I posted.  I NEVER said the Camaro handled better than a Corvette.  I said it handled "fairly" well.  I was referring to the styling of the 2 cars and the fact that GM used the same engine in both.  Of course a camaro is going to have more weight when compared to a Vette.  Of course a Vette will win in handling.  I'm not that ignorant.  I'm saying in the Mid 80's to Mid 90's the 2 cars seemed more similar than in earlier and later generations and that's why I feel mine is more of a sports car than a muscle car.

:banghead:

"3rd & 4th gen Camaros vs Vettes...very similar in appearance to the Vettes out at the time and high end camaros had low end vette engines.  I consider my 3rd gen camaro a sports car and feel they stepped away from the pony or muscle car image they had in the early generations and the generations now.  My 3rd Gen camaro could hug some corners back in the day and handled fairly well.  OK, Camaros have back seats.  If your definition of a sports car is any 2 seat performance type vehicle, then it's not one.  I'm not sure why they bothered to put a backseat with no leg room in the car.  You certainly couldn't sit in it without laying across it.  You'd be more comfortable laying in the trunk space to be honest.

Maybe the Vettes at the time aren't considered sports cars.  They are basically boxes in my opinion.  I might add...I was a child of the 80's so I was too late to the muscle car party and therefore the Camaros and Trans Ams of my childhood/teenage years in the 80's more closely resembled Corvettes.  Therefore to me, I class those years the same.  We can agree to disagree on those years."

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Box vs. box.  The Vette looks like a Camaro without a backseat and a longer nose.

Again, we'll agree to disagree.  I'm just a stupid chick that obviously doesn't know chit about chit.

Offline droptopsf98

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2013, 05:36:41 PM »
....agree to disagree

The camaro is built to race straight, the corvette is built to turn.  There really isn't anything else to the argument. 

Offline ihawk95

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #141 on: July 22, 2013, 05:48:49 PM »
And I grew up in the land of flat and straight (Iowa) thus my skewed  perception of the 2 during that era. For me, they were both going flat and straight. I didn't know roads had curves until 6 years ago! No joke!

Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2013, 06:27:12 PM »
And I grew up in the land of flat and straight (Iowa) thus my skewed  perception of the 2 during that era. For me, they were both going flat and straight. I didn't know roads had curves until 6 years ago! No joke!

Awe Chit. Dats no lie
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Offline ihawk95

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2013, 06:45:33 PM »
Your cornfed accent is a little off GJ.
I just warshed that there B*tchin Camaro down by the crick. It was a hoot!

And I do not talk fast nor do I sound like I'm from Minnesote-a!

Offline droptopsf98

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2013, 07:56:25 PM »
And I grew up in the land of flat and straight (Iowa) thus my skewed  perception of the 2 during that era. For me, they were both going flat and straight. I didn't know roads had curves until 6 years ago! No joke!

soooo true.  I grew up in Ohio which has some curvy roads albeit nothing legendary.  I moved to Omaha and the roads are all straight. I assume Iowa is similar from what I've seen from I-80.

Moved to Denver...holy mountain roads.  Yes please!  Thanks for not taking this personal :)

Offline ihawk95

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2013, 09:31:55 PM »
Southeast ohio has good roads, but you have to go off the beaten path and scout them. Depends on what you like. 555 is pretty well known with the motorcycle  enthusiasts.  I assume you're familiar with it:

http://www.motorcycleroads.us/roads/oh555.html

I grew up 90 miles NW of Des Moines. I had an aunt in Council Bluffs. It's about the same.  All the roads are laid out in a 1 mile x 1 mile grid. Throw Farnhamville, Iowa up on Google maps. Flat and straight black velvet roads for as far as you can see... which on a clear day is at least 7 miles.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:36:47 PM by ihawk95 »

Offline Sol Asylum

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2013, 09:47:40 PM »
You can watch your dog run away for days.
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Offline ihawk95

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2013, 09:57:23 PM »
How well you know! You have pretty much the same scenery.  We had more gravel roads in Iowa vs. Illinois. And our roads were wider and the ditches deeper. Wonder why that is?

Offline rob the elder

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2013, 03:15:28 PM »
Its not about the money

Not every road in America is a race course

Having a V8 means you smile everytime you start it up

If you have to ask how much, you can not afford it . . .

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: V8 worth the costs?
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2013, 04:08:22 PM »
You can also smile every time you fire up your 4 cylinder that has the power of a LS1/LS2/LS3.
You are correct on if you have to ask you can not afford it....
However, is all on what you like, and owning a 4 cylinder turbo, can put as many smiles on your face.
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