Topic: V8 worth the costs?

[L-N-Fn]

 gmtech16450yz will the add weight to front end, and it's negative effect on handling, be worth the "power, sound and the just plain "feel" of a good running V/8." You can probably tell by my handle L-N-F'n I'm pretty impressed by our little 4 banger.

[wspohn]

I guess I just haven't drunk the Kool-aid - I own V8s and enjoy them, but I don't have one up on an altar so I can worship it.  Frankly, my favourite engine would be the V12, which I think is a Hell of a lot neater than any V8.

And I'm not so sure that I'm the only one.  Yes, there are the brainwashed who want nothing but a V8, but there are many (mostly racers) who like or prefer a 4, 6, or 12 to a V8.

[normsf]

gmtech16450yz will the add weight to front end, and it's negative effect on handling, be worth the "power, sound and the just plain "feel" of a good running V/8." You can probably tell by my handle L-N-F'n I'm pretty impressed by our little 4 banger.

Hello, this has been gone over a lot before. Using a LS engine which is aluminium  the weight difference is very small and would be offset by our lightweight hoods and fenders, etc. There is no negative effect on handling. Myth!

[gmtech16450yz]

Hello, this has been gone over a lot before. Using a LS engine which is aluminium  the weight difference is very small and would be offset by our lightweight hoods and fenders, etc. There is no negative effect on handling. Myth!

Good call Norm, right on the money!

Wade of Wade's garage, one of the first, if not THE first shop to do a V/8 swap in a Solstice, has already de-bunked the weight myth. His V/8's were around 100-150 lbs heavier, which is not much at all. The bigger difference is that the weight distribution is actually BETTER than with the LNF, with the added weight being mostly over the rear axle. The LSA build I'm doing is lower in the frame than the ones that Wade's done, and about an inch further back than his builds. (I removed the rear engine cross-member and replaced it with one I built from scratch to gain engine clearance.) It looks like my engine placement is as far as 4 or 5 INCHES further back than one of the other vendor's V/8 builds, and again, probably at least 2 inches lower. I know my engine placement is also further back and lower than the Hot Rod Magazine LS7 Solstice, and that car tested faster through slalom tests than the Z06, Porsche Carrera GT, Ferrari Enzo and Lamborghini Murcielago. I believe it out-braked all those cars also. Having the engine lower and further back does nothing bad and everything good for handling, traction and even ride quality.

I'm actually NOT stressing about adding weight to my car, a little added weight will only make it drive like a more refined car. It's gonna have more than enough power and brakes for whatever weight it ends up being. Even if it ends up being 400lbs heavier (not likely), it will just mean it's gonna feel more solid and planted than if I went for all-out weight reduction. A 3400 lbs Sky with ~650hp is still gonna be a helluva nice driving car, especially if most of that weight ends up over the rear axle and in a stiffer chassis and frame.

So yeah, for those that think my big, heavy V/8 is gonna make my car handle like a pig, sorry but no. It will most likely out corner, out brake, out accelerate, out launch, and ride nicer than pretty much any LNF Kappa. The power I got out of that little 4 banger was impressive, but I'm not gonna miss it one tiny little bit. At all. Ever.

[L-N-Fn]

Well put john, but a picture worth thousand words.LOL

[normsf]

Well put john, but a picture worth thousand words.LOL

Nothing wrong with a fast 4, but your plates are almost expired. LOL

[2kwk4u]

I guess I just haven't drunk the Kool-aid - I own V8s and enjoy them, but I don't have one up on an altar so I can worship it.  Frankly, my favourite engine would be the V12, which I think is a Hell of a lot neater than any V8.

And I'm not so sure that I'm the only one.  Yes, there are the brainwashed who want nothing but a V8, but there are many (mostly racers) who like or prefer a 4, 6, or 12 to a V8.

I'll admit that a good straight 6 is a sweet-sounding, and -performing motor - as is a V-12.  But (1) American auto makers don't do them all that well.  You have to go to BMW, Toyota, or the Italians for those.  (2) While it's not impossible (and has been done), it's a much larger can of worms to get an import motor to look and function like it belongs in a Kappa. (3) a good old-fashioned pushrod V8 fits with surprisingly little modification (unless you go gmtech's route...  seriously, you should check out his build!)

These debates can and will go on forever.  Shall we open this up to N/A vs/ forced induction?  Turbo vs. supercharger?  Overhead cam vs. pushrod?  If we go down those rabbit holes, we could get this thread moved to the deep end

[ChopTop]

These debates can and will go on forever.  Shall we open this up to N/A vs/ forced induction?  Turbo vs. supercharger?

Your wish is my command!

http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f64/opinion-2-4-turbo-vs-sc-79673/

There's also this one:
http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f11/pipe-dream-small-v8-72598/

Basically these debates turn into an exercise of mental masturbation with nobody reaching a climax. 

[LatinVenom]

Yes, the debate could go on for ever, but what happened to all those V8's that race with WERKS and were left behind.
What happened in 2007 and 2008 at the SCCA  T2 races when the Solstice place 1st against V8's?.
To say that a V8 KAPPA with the same power will out handle the same LNF with similar power is a bit of stretch. On that topic it will always come down to the driver.

[Gentleman Jack]

Yes, the debate could go on for ever, but what happened to all those V8's that race with WERKS and were left behind.
What happened in 2007 and 2008 at the SCCA  T2 races when the Solstice place 1st against V8's?.
To say that a V8 KAPPA with the same power will out handle the same LNF with similar power is a bit of stretch. On that topic it will always come down to the driver.

It's not possible to have the LNF have the same power as the V8. Sure, they may both have 400 WHP. But that doesn't mean they have the same power. Show me a LNF curve that matches an LS curve. Show me an LS that revs the same as an LNF. Now tell me what the car is being used for?  Then I can tell you if it's worth it.

[wspohn]

It's not possible to have the LNF have the same power as the V8. Sure, they may both have 400 WHP. But that doesn't mean they have the same power. Show me a LNF curve that matches an LS curve. Show me an LS that revs the same as an LNF. Now tell me what the car is being used for?  Then I can tell you if it's worth it.

Uh - if they have identical power readings on a dyno, that mans they have the same power by definition.  If you mean that the torque and power curves will be different, well of course they will - no one ever said otherwise.  The LNF has an exemplary torque curve, better than any stock V8 - dead flat from quite low.  Here is a Cobalt dyno (unfortunately graphed against mph rather than rpm).

[Gentleman Jack]

Thank you for proving my point so well! In this car (looks like an AWESOME drag car) the max power isn't available until 100MPH (probably up around 5000 RPM).  That's AWESOME!

In a V8, the same power level would probably be available at  3500 RPM. Also AWESOME! 

But, to my point- DIFFERENT POWER!

400HP is NOT EQUAL TO 400HP.
That's all I'm saying.

[Sol Asylum]

Thank you for proving my point so well! In this car (looks like an AWESOME drag car) the max power isn't available until 100MPH (probably up around 5000 RPM).  That's AWESOME!

In a V8, the same power level would probably be available at  3500 RPM. Also AWESOME! 

But, to my point- DIFFERENT POWER!

400HP is NOT EQUAL TO 400HP.
That's all I'm saying.

Is that like saying the 4th of July will be on June 27th?

400HP does equal 400HP (it doesn't even take higher math to explain) but when and where it shows up in the HP curve makes a big difference.

[Gentleman Jack]

Exactly.

[wspohn]

Thank you for proving my point so well! In this car (looks like an AWESOME drag car) the max power isn't available until 100MPH (probably up around 5000 RPM).  That's AWESOME!

In a V8, the same power level would probably be available at  3500 RPM. Also AWESOME! 

But, to my point- DIFFERENT POWER!

400HP is NOT EQUAL TO 400HP.
That's all I'm saying.

We'll wait for you to find us a V8 that has 626 BHP at 3500 rpm.  I won't hold my breath.  BTW, that was a street driven LNF. 

Where exactly do you imagine a V8 would put out maximum power in 4th?

[2kwk4u]

We'll wait for you to find us a V8 that has 626 BHP at 3500 rpm.  I won't hold my breath.  BTW, that was a street driven LNF. 

Where exactly do you imagine a V8 would put out maximum power in 4th?

Here you go...  I found this in a 15-second google search (my internet is slow here in Russia).  I'd guess with a couple of bolt on mods or maybe even just a tune, the LS9 would get there.  All of the figures in the graph below are for stock engines with WARRANTIES

[2kwk4u]

Here's another.  I can do this all day:

[Gentleman Jack]

2kwk4u,

Nicely done.

[gmtech16450yz]

It's not possible to have the LNF have the same power as the V8. Sure, they may both have 400 WHP. But that doesn't mean they have the same power. Show me a LNF curve that matches an LS curve. Show me an LS that revs the same as an LNF. Now tell me what the car is being used for?  Then I can tell you if it's worth it.

It IS absolutely possible to have an LNF that has the same power curve as a (stock) LS motor. My LNF had a wider, higher power curve than a stock LS1, LS2, LS3, and get this, even higher low end torque than an LS7. Here's my dyno sheet before adding some final mods that probably added another 30 to 50 hp/tq. Notice the torque peak? Find a stock LS motor that puts out 460+ ft lbs of torque to the wheels at 3500 rpm and I'm betting it'll have a blower on it. And those blower LS motors, the LSA and LS9, don't spin to 7500 rpm either.

An LNF can make V/8 power, but it costs a fair amount of money and time. Any LS motor puts out V/8 power stock, but it costs very little time and money to gain gobs of power, with fantastic dependability.

My LNF a year before I bent the rods and pulled the motor-




Stock LS3-



Stock LS7-



Stock LS9-

[Gentleman Jack]

Exactly like I said. The LNF is amazing. It's capable of being a monster. A V8 is simple, elegant and effortless power. The LNF is technological, complex and a lot of work to get that power, but it is so worth the effort.

Until you break it.

[1LILNDN]

There were Hondas & Nisans on the dyno pulling 550 to 648 at a speed shop show.

[Kelu]

Here you go...  I found this in a 15-second google search (my internet is slow here in Russia).  I'd guess with a couple of bolt on mods or maybe even just a tune, the LS9 would get there.  All of the figures in the graph below are for stock engines with WARRANTIES

With all respect, I think google from Russia is hacked.
IF tq is in lbs-ft + hp and tq on same scale = they need to intersect at 5252rpm. I hope that is not an official GM statement because something is fishy there.


PS: try yandex 

gmtech16450yz Can I ask you a question to which you can answer honest? If you can't, than better don't answer.
After your upgrades, how many miles did you actually used that tune to drive it daily? And how many you drove with a lower tune?

[gmtech16450yz]

With all respect, I think google from Russia is hacked.
IF tq is in lbs-ft + hp and tq on same scale = they need to intersect at 5252rpm. I hope that is not an official GM statement because something is fishy there.


PS: try yandex 

gmtech16450yz Can I ask you a question to which you can answer honest? If you can't, than better don't answer.
After your upgrades, how many miles did you actually used that tune to drive it daily? And how many you drove with a lower tune?

Kelu, the only way I know how to answer ANY question is honestly. I abhor liars and I strive to always be as honest as possible at all times. That's what gets me in the most trouble, my brutal honesty. The reason I say I "strive" is because there are times when being honest with someone would be far too painful for that person. In those cases, instead of saying what they want to hear, I usually keep my mouth shut and don't say anything.

Honestly, I daily drove my car for over 2 years at this power level, and actually for a year of that it was HIGHER in power. Rain, sun, 30 degree days and 105 degree days, it didn't matter. As I've said, my engine unfortunately had stock rods for all of the time I drove it. The rods didn't bend on this dyno, or many other dyno runs, or literally hundreds of 60-100 runs. I made some significant tune changes in the last year or so of driving the car with that engine, and finally got the power to the point of bending 3 out of 4 rods. So yes, I daily drove my car at that power level and above for over 2 years. My Wife, Son and Daughter also drove it many times in those two years, and had no problem with the driveability. The tune was so smooth I could put anyone in that car and they could drive it just like it was a stock motor.

To reply to the point of your question, Yes, a ~550hp LNF Kappa CAN be a totally daily driveable car. Oh yeah, and the person who now has my turbo setup is also daily driving their car. (I sold over $12k worth of parts off my car that I won't need for the V/8 build.)

edit- I just remembered something about that dyno sheet from my car I posted. The day I did that dyno run, I was there testing another guy's Solstice. It was a last minute idea to throw my car on the dyno. Those numbers were on THE TUNE I DROVE IN ON. NO tuning or turning up the boost was done on the dyno, we just strapped it down, made two runs and I went home, on the same tune.

[LatinVenom]

You all need to remember this thread is about the KAPPA V8 conversions and not about a car already equipped with V8's.
I understand the passion of the V8, the sound etc... but do not dismiss the 4 cylinder turbo on our cars.
It will always cost you MORE to do a V8 conversion on a KAPPA plain and simple.
John (wspohn) and I are in the minority and that is OK with me. Just do not spout information that is plain wrong about HP vs HP when it comes to the subject in this thread.
I think GMTECH has posted some dyno charts that confirms my statements.
I think is time to put this to rest, is very clear what a lot of you think and talking more on the subject is not going to change the mind set of any one of us.

[Gentleman Jack]

I'm not sure you're understanding me.

I LOVE THE LNF!!!!  It's a modern marvel. Second only to the VAG 2.0T in the RWD / AWD cars.