Topic: Will a GT3076R turbo work on a GXP

[SKY888]

whooooaaaa what happened to this peaceful tread????

geeezzzz....why do other forum member have to be ridiculous.   Grrrrrrr!

All I can say is I will trust any of my car to DDM.   I've dealt with Dave since day 1....and him and his company has the best customer service out there.    There were some hiccups before, but DDM Dave always will go above and beyond to make things right.

DDM 2871 turbo upgrade kit will not be the highest producing whp kit out there, but for the price, it has a good enough punch for other people.  Its a great kit for some people who wants that extra kick.

[SKY888]

Good luck with your turbo choice. I am very satisfied with the EFR. Planning to test the 7163 next summer (if this turbo gets released in time). The 6758 works really great on my car. Last year I logged 3.4s 60-100. I logged 40-60mph in 0.57s the other day with HP tuners, which is very fast, this is with even more hrs of fine tuning. All this at 1.6 bar of boost.

that's sweet!!!

keep us updated on your 7163 when you have it installed.

[SKY888]

Whoa, this blew up fast... Only thing I heard about the GMG car was that they tried the 6258 vs the 2871 and liked the EFR better, now it seems that there is more of a back story I wasn't aware of and I'm sorry I brought that up. 

matt, do you know why they liked the EFR over the 2871?  I was just wondering what made them liked it better.   Spooled faster?  made more whp? etc?


I'm assuming the 6258 spooled faster. 

If given the choice, I'll probably choose the EFR turbo as well, due to the newer technology it offers

[GXP_Matt]

The dyno chart I saw showed quicker spool and higher peak numbers, although the peak numbers of the 6258 are similar to what DDM gets on other cars with the 2871.  If the 2871 GMG had wasn't working right that would explain the big discrepancy though.  Those turbos should be pretty similar but the EFR does have the TiAl turbine wheel which doesn't show up in dyno pulls and will respond more quickly to throttle transients...

[SKY888]

The dyno chart I saw showed quicker spool and higher peak numbers, although the peak numbers of the 6258 are similar to what DDM gets on other cars with the 2871.  If the 2871 GMG had wasn't working right that would explain the big discrepancy though.  Those turbos should be pretty similar but the EFR does have the TiAl turbine wheel which doesn't show up in dyno pulls and will respond more quickly to throttle transients...

thanks for the info.

That's what I suspected, and actually stated on my previous thoughts on this thread.   The 6255 and 6258 will be a good match against the ddm 2871.   

And the 6758 will overpower the 2871.

I just haven't seen a real world comparison between the 6258 vs ddm 2871.......spool/whp


and yes, you are right about the gamma-ti turbine wheel of the EFR which will be stupid fast in spool and quick throttle transients will not really show in dyno pulls

[LatinVenom]

Question does the 2871 from DDM keeps it as a dual scroll turbo like the KO4 and 6758 or does it stay as a single scroll turbo?.

[GXP_Matt]

Question does the 2871 from DDM keeps it as a dual scroll turbo like the KO4 and 6758 or does it stay as a single scroll turbo?.

Twin scroll, since they machine the stock turbine housing to accept the GT28 core.  The EFRs are actually single scroll... although that will change in the future...

[JoshMcMadMac]

...not a cobbled together, poorly designed, and just a bad idea turbo. I think I'd rather have Borg Warner doing the machining on a turbo I put on a motor I built than a turbo somebody re-machined by themselves.

As much as I do not care for your brash demeanor, I do respect your knowledge and experience in this arena.  So I am curious why you do not trust a single professional machinist over a corporation?  Is that not like saying you trust GM to build an engine more than a dedicated performance shop, say Lingenfelter or Hennessy?  I know a few machinists and machine operators/programmers that I have seen "masterful" work come out of that I would never see come off of an assembly line.  Do you have issues with the 2871 itself, other than it being "too geriatric" for your repertoire?

[Sol Asylum]

I wouldn't bet on a response anytime soon.  I think the average response time after something like this is like 6 months.

[LatinVenom]

Twin scroll, since they machine the stock turbine housing to accept the GT28 core.  The EFRs are actually single scroll... although that will change in the future...

Matt:
I thought the 6758 was a twin scroll turbo, but I guess I was wrong.
Prices of the 6758 are as low as $1495.00, to bad you have to get more hardware to make it work on our LNF.

[cdflint]

I think to answer the original question, Sky888 answered it, yes it will fit (he had it), tuning has changed when it was on his car so the goal for OP's numbers seem that they can be met, but is it the right turbo for what you want it to do? The cost was not addressed (at least not that I saw on this thread) but this thread took a turn that didn't need to go.

I too have considered an upgrade to my stock turbo. With all that I have added to my car, it drives fast. More than my old 70 Datsun 1600 or 63 bugeye sprite ever pushed out. To be fair, this is a completely different kind of car in a different time. If my Grandma had a stock turbo GXP rather then a new Dodge 400 in the 80's, she would have been bad a$$. Tunes and upgrades were not important, it was style. I don't feel like getting opinions from a forum full of opinions based on there experience is a bad thing. People have different set ups and is one better than another?  People have different desires in what they want their car to be and do.

I like power off the line and the 0-60 timing rather than high speed. I know with a ko4 and a tune, my car can get to high speeds. I know the ko4 has a quick response with spooling but limited hp. I don't autoX or drag race, I just enjoy what it does where ever I'm at. In talking to a Phoenix owner who sold his car and then sold his turbo separately, he said if he did it again he would have kept the smaller ko4 rather than upgrading to the Precision 5558b kit. Even though it gave more power, it lost the sweet spot timing of the turbo response. Again it was just an opinion, for someone else it could be perfect timing for what they do.

For me, my consideration is quick spool and the drivability like it was a daily driver.  I like my punch of the turbo early but I also would like the punch be a little harder (at or under 400 hp to keep with the same internals safe). Oh and cost, dang if I'm not cheap. So does the DDM 2871 or the Werks WR1 or even the Hahn 20g get me to this place? I ask the opinion of those who have the set ups answer. I'm not a turbo guy and I've not read everything about them. I like simple information and not every detail data log. I've not read what they all mean, that's just me. I'm not wanting to reconfigure everything to make a turbo work (although some are very cool to watch be built). I'm not looking to add a fifth fuel injector or add water-meth or NOS. I'd consider an external BOV as part of the upgrade but would like to keep recirculating since it sounded like the non's tend to create MAF issues (based on just opinions of experience of owners from our cars). I'd like a safe for the engine, bolt on and tune upgrade that spools the same and adds more kick when the turbo boosts.

With all the different turbos out there I get lost on what does what. ko4, gt, gtx, efr, ppe, 3076r, 2871, 6758, 6255, 6258, 5558b, 666bs. I know they are different sizes with different capacities. I see spending around 1200.00 or less as somewhat reasonable for my goal (again, I'm cheap, I want to pay less and will wait for it when its cheaper). Your opinions on turbos for this...

[LatinVenom]

If all you have to spend is $1200.00 then none of the turbo updates you listed will work.
The DDM GT2871 is $1295.00 plus another $105.00 for the turbo install kit. Then add the cost of the tune.
Even the Werks WR-1 is $1250.00 and it can not compare to the above. It is a big wheel upgrade with less punch than the above.
Good luck but you need a little more cash to get to what you want.

[cdflint]

Sorry, I meant more in this range. In thinking about it more, i realize there isnt anything cheaper unless there a used one for sale. In looking at other options with higher hp they can get pretty pricy. I have the full tune with Trifecta and they seem to be part of the package deal so it doesn't seem that I would need to pay for another tune, just a retune for an upgrade. I could be mistaken though. I may not be ready for awhile but since the topic of turbos came up.... I'll have to read up more.

[L-N-Fn]

Twin scroll, since they machine the stock turbine housing to accept the GT28 core.  The EFRs are actually single scroll... although that will change in the future...

Are 6758 available with Twin scroll?

[GXP_Matt]

Are 6758 available with Twin scroll?

Not yet...  Couple things in the pipeline for EFR turbos, but tooling up a couple different turbine housing sizes is pretty expensive so there isn't a big rush to spend all that money as you might imagine.

[L-N-Fn]

They have pictures and part # and spec's in there catalog? I want the extra top end a R/A .92 would give!

[kwtoxman]

So what can an EFR 6258 do for whp on a solstice? I gave up on that turbo because I have never seen any #'s given.

I used an BW EFR turbo calculator to estimate hp of the 6258 and got 380 max, which I thought would be crank. Meaning only about 325 to the wheels. I may have not entered all the data correctly though. The link is as follows.

www.turbodriven.com/performanceturbos/matchbot/index.html#version=1.2&displacement=2&CID=122.04&altitude=1650&baro=14.033&aat=75&turboconfig=1&
compressor=62k80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=3&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=6&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1550&pt1_t
er=1.12&pt1_pw=7.19&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=8&pt2_i
e=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=6.2&pt2_ce=69&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1600&pt2_ter=1.28&pt2_pw=0.31&pt2_bsfc=0.45&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320
&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=100&pt3_boost=20.5&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=6.5&pt3_ce=73&p
t3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=1.74&pt3_pw=11.66&pt3_bsfc=0.48&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&
pt4_ve=100&pt4_boost=20&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=7&pt4_ce=76&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=1.82&pt4_pw=20.99&pt4_bsfc=
0.5&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=105&pt5_boost=22&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5
&pt5_mbp=7&pt5_ce=66&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=2.19&pt5_pw=22.33&pt5_bsfc=0.52&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrs
in=92044&pt6_rpm=6500&pt6_ve=105&pt6_boost=20&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=7.5&pt6_ce=62&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=2.2&p
t6_pw=22.86&pt6_bsfc=0.55&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&


My historical thinking on the DDM 2871 was that it would be about the same 325 whp, that is what I saw in #'s when the kit was first released. Now people are saying 350-375 whp on pump gas. But I can't find any dyno charts showing that. Anyone have any? And without other power adders such as E47 and water/meth...

And it seems lots of all-over info on spool comparisons. In my reading, the DDM 2871 and EFR6758 should begin to spool at similar RPM (6758 maybe 100-200 rpm slower), but the 6758 will spool to full boost waay faster. What are the thoughts here?

[elff]

Miller posted his 2871 dyno on 93 Octane.  He made 370something at the rear wheels

[kwtoxman]

That helped Elff.

I see an old post where Millar said he stopped at 350 whp but the dyno graph attachments are gone. I found a miller dyno sheet you posted in the sky forum on a thread and it shows 350 whp. Drops off a fair bit past 5500 rpm (not unexpected). I assume the 6758 won't do that and I wonder about the 6258, any thoughts from anybody on either?

On that sky thread you say you (Elff) got your sub 4 second 60-100 times with the 2871 on E47. I assume the #'s you give here for yourself on the 2871 are with E47 too then.

Trying to sort all this out.

[Dave@DDMworks]

That helped. I see an old post where he said he stopped at 350 whp but the dyno graph attachments are gone. I found a miller dyno sheet you posted in the sky forum on a thread and it shows 350 whp. Drops off a fair bit past 5500 rpm (not unexpected). I assume the 6758 won't do that and I wonder about the 6258, any thoughts from anybody on either?

On that sky thread you say you got your sub 4 second 60-100 times with the 2871 on E47. I assume the #'s you give here for yourself on the 2871 are with E47 too then.

Trying to sort all this out.

I can post up a couple dyno sheets later, but all of the 2871's we have been doing here end up in the 370-375whp range lately with some of the cam timing tweaks we have learned that the engine with the 2871 likes. Originally we were typically in the 360-365whp range.

[gmtech16450yz]

This was from the last time I had my car on the dyno, probably a year and a half ago. Before I pulled the motor to sell it to a race team I was up at least 50-75hp/trq higher than these dyno numbers. I think the stock LNF rods are supposed to be good for 650/700 crank hp? At least that's what I remember. When I first got my car it had Wiseco forged pistons but still had the stock rods. When my engine was at it's best tune, I finally ended up bending 3 out of 4 rods. Worst one was a nice S shape and had the piston about a 1/4 inch lower in the bore than it was supposed to be.

So to answer the question about the EFR dyno numbers, with a (good) 5th injector setup, the 6758 is capable of putting down 500whp/500wtq. I know I was over that with the work I had done after this dyno. The impressive part is the rpm range. I think my AVERAGE torque was over 400wtq from 3500 to 7500rpm. As some have mentioned, what rpm the turbo first spools to max pressure is one thing, but it's not everything about a turbo. I've seen some LNF turbos that will put out 30psi at 3600rpm, but the spool is so slow that if you don't NLS shift, the boost never even gets back up to 20psi between shifts in each gear. I have plenty of logs showing the EFR boost line being practically vertical. That means after a regular shift, the boost goes from 0 to 30psi in a matter of a couple hundred rpm or a little less than a second if I remember right.

I've also tuned the 6258. The performance is very similar to the 6758, it just boosts even quicker. It's actually hard to tune an EFR if you're trying to keep the boost low, they just WANT to make boost immediately. There are also a few guys out there with 6758's that are on stock bottom ends putting down over 400whp/400wtq on a conservative tune.

Although I do have experience with 2871 logs and dyno numbers, I will refrain from posting anything about that particular turbo.

[LatinVenom]

My only comment is the price of the 6258 vs the 6758 are pretty much the same, so why not go with the 6758.

[miller11386]

Miller posted his 2871 dyno on 93 Octane.  He made 370something at the rear wheels

350whp and a 379 tq. max

Keep in mind this was probably the first DDM install of a 2871 after the test car. I am sure the tunes have a little more in them now compared to what my car had.

Also my car was higher-ish miles... 65k or so at the time of install

[gmtech16450yz]

(Image removed from quote.)

350whp and a 379 tq. max

Keep in mind this was probably the first DDM install of a 2871 after the test car. I am sure the tunes have a little more in them now compared to what my car had.

Also my car was higher-ish miles... 65k or so at the time of install

Thanks Miller. I'm only gonna say this... This dyno and mine are very good examples of why you REALLY shouldn't go by peak numbers. It's all about the curve. Peak numbers are only ~100hp/tq apart, but there's spots where it's about 150hp/tq difference. You need to look at how long it holds torque and hp, and how steep it drops off. Take the values at every 500rpm from 3k to 7k and add them up. Divide by how many points you added and look at the average. That will give you an idea of how the engine actually reacts on the street or track. High torque numbers with low hp numbers will give you a motor that feels "lazy" and won't want to rev out easily. A motor that makes hp all the way to redline will be a motor that feels like it revs and makes power forever. Basically the difference between a "lazy" motor and a "lively" motor. A motor that has a sharp torque curve that drops off quickly will be a car you'll definitely need to short shift. (NONE of these comments are directly relating to the 2871 OR the EFR, just general information.)

LV- The only reason (in my opinion) that anyone would opt for the smaller EFR would be to stay within a certain race series rules. The larger EFR still spools crazy fast and it definitely makes more top end power. And yeah, the price is just about the same.

[kwtoxman]

My only comment is the price of the 6258 vs the 6758 are pretty much the same, so why not go with the 6758.

For me, I won't be going to 450-500 whp. I'd be happy around 375whp with great power under the curve. So if the 6258 can do 375 whp without falling off at higher rpm and it spools even earlier than the 6758, that would be a great combo and power curve for me. But I just can't find the info to confirm what the 6258 can do. It would be hard to take a chance and only have it do 325 whp.

But the 6758 is a known entity for spool, hp and the curve on the lnf. It also has some headroom which is appealing.