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Author Topic: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice  (Read 10399 times)

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Offline Vanguard

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Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« on: November 17, 2010, 07:09:10 PM »
 :banghead:

A few weeks ago, I noticed a bunch of carbon buildup around the turbo under the heat shield.  I took it to the dealership and after their diagnostic, they said "you do have a problem with your turbo with an exhaust leak and a crack.  Since it is under the powertrain warranty, we will be replacing it."

Fast forward to today.  I get a call from the dealership saying this; "we've concluded that the downpipe you have on your car has caused the turbo to fail, so we cannot warranty the parts needed."

I walked in and asked to look at the equipment.  My Sky is currently up on the lift with everything from the turbo to my RPi exhaust sitting on the work bench.  The first thing they showed me was my downpipe.  There was a crack just below the weld on the downpipe-side of the connector piece.  After calling Eloy at RPi, he said that the piece is lifetime warrantied and as long as it wasn't cracked by something hitting it, I will get it fixed/replaced free of charge.  No harm here.

However, when I looked at the turbo, on the piece of S-shaped metal at the outlet, there was a crack.  Now, I've read here that this is a typical issue of the K04 but this should not require replacing.  Is this statement correct? 

Next problem...they told me that they were going to do all this under warranty and then changed their mind.  The car is obviously not drivable in its current condition, however if the turbo is ok with that crack, it should still work just fine.  What I'm worried about is that they will charge me a metric *@#$load of money for the labor of putting it back on.  Does anyone think I have a leg to stand on in this fight?

Any advice/help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Offline 2.0 tspeed

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 07:19:04 PM »
My dealer hasn't noticed my downpipe but then again they don't know what there doing and took them forever to find out what was wrong with my car. I don't have exhaust thou just a solo dp with a cat so it pretty much looks stock. Your exhaust probably gave your car away. Honestly I dunno what to tell you. B calm when you approach them I'm sure you guys can work out sone negotciable price. Just buy a new turbo.

Formally Slowsol with a 07 solstice gxp e85 331whp 400wtq trifecta tune
2013 verano turbo

Offline DirtyMike

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 07:22:43 PM »
The crack inside the turbo is normal if its in the divider wall, I cracked my dp twice, but from speed bumps...had it welded.

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Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 08:18:31 PM »
Almost every turbo we have seen here off of the cars has the crack in the divider, and although I would not say it is normal it is very common. It does not seem to cause any issue with the way the turbo operates and should not be an issue. Is that what they are calling a failure of the turbo, or is there anything else going on besides the carbon buildup from the exhaust leak?

Dave
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:00:55 AM by Dave@DDMworks »
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Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 08:46:36 PM »
Update...They just quoted me north of $2500.  That will include the turbo, gaskets, o-rings, etc.  I asked the service man if he could put the turbo back on the car...he replied that the turbo itself was leaking and that it is unrepairable, thus requiring a new turbo.  I asked him if they could prove that the aftermarket part caused the turbo to be replaced and his response was "well, the crack in the downpipe caused a lean condition which then caused a leak in the turbo".  I'm not the biggest expert on that, but it sounds like BS....

Offline DirtyMike

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 08:59:52 PM »
For that price you can go with a bigger aftermarket turbo!

Sounds like bs. Put the turbo back on, get a new dp or weld it, and see what happens...

BTF ShabbyPipes w/TialQ ,HID low&fogs, stubby,Tints, RPi GT Exhaust & RacePipe, Hahn IC, Areoforce Dual Guages, DDM ProBeam, Race Backbone & APilar,Wester\'s Race Tune,TenzoR DC5, Eibach Sportlines, BTF\"BigWheel\" ko4+,JPM shifter,RK sport hood,norms sky fenders, HKS turbo timer & some CF bits

Offline Dave@DDMworks

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 09:07:44 PM »
Update...They just quoted me north of $2500.  That will include the turbo, gaskets, o-rings, etc.  I asked the service man if he could put the turbo back on the car...he replied that the turbo itself was leaking and that it is unrepairable, thus requiring a new turbo.  I asked him if they could prove that the aftermarket part caused the turbo to be replaced and his response was "well, the crack in the downpipe caused a lean condition which then caused a leak in the turbo".  I'm not the biggest expert on that, but it sounds like BS....

Where was the turbo leaking?

The crack could have caused a lean condition, but with the artificial lean condition, the ecm would have kept dumping fuel in trying to richen the artificial lean condition, just fyi

So a leak at the downpipe which would cause a artificial lean conditon, which would in turn cause the car to run abnormally rich, caused the turbo to leak (oil?), and they want $2500 to fix it?

WOW! We are in the wrong business....

Dave
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Offline gmtech16450yz

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 10:43:35 PM »
Did you sign for any money on the original repair order? If you didn't and they said it's going to be covered under warranty, you shouldn't have to pay a dime to at least get it out of there. If there's a question of whether something is going to be covered or not, a good service writer will get you to sign for some amount of money to pay for the inspection and diagnosis. If it's covered, you don't pay the estimate, if it's not, you pay what you agreed to pay. If they didn't have you sign for any money to check it out, you pay nothing. If they're not smart enough to know if it's covered or not, that's their problem.

If you put the downpipe on yourself, then you can probably put the turbo back on yourself too. Actually, I believe the law reads that if they take it apart to figure out what's wrong with it, and they haven't told you that you have to pay anything before taking it apart, they have to put it back together for free. In other words, if you never agreed to pay for anything, they should return your car in the condition they got it in.

Don't quote me on any of this, I'm a tech not a writer. I believe the laws regarding auto repair are similar across the country so I should be right on this. The key is whether you signed for any money or not. Or if they gave you an updated estimate of repairs or diagnosis time in which you agreed to pay.

Like Dave said, the cracks in the turbo and exhaust manifold are not normal, but very common. (I've never seen one that wasn't cracked.) And he's also correct, if there was an exhaust leak ahead of the Lambda or 02 sensor it would read a false lean condition which would make the motor run too rich, not too lean. Even if it was running lean like they said, it's unlikely that it would "cause the turbo to leak". Leaking what? Tell them to prove what they're talking about or give you your car back.

As far as getting the repair covered under warranty, you really should have known better than that. You put an aftermarket part on, an emission part at that, and brought it in to the dealer expecting them to cover it under warranty. If the dealer wants to be snotty about it, they can call GM and have your powertrain warranty blocked (voided) because of the modified emission control item. If you plan on going to this dealer in the future, you might want to play nice and figure out a solution that's fair for both of you. (Like paying the labor it took them to diagnose the problem, not to take off a turbo that may or may not have a problem.) Or if you really do need a new turbo, tell them you really don't think the downpipe had anything to do with the turbo failure so how about they warranty the part (turbo) and you'll pay all the labor. Or vise-versa, you pay for the turbo and they eat the labor. Not to be too mean, but you blew it by not pulling the cover off the turbo and checking the aftermarket downpipe yourself. Now that you're in this situation, it might end up costing you some cash to get out of it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 10:49:54 PM by gmtech16450yz »

Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 12:32:08 AM »
Or, just take the car, that is already apart, from the dealer, buy an upgraded or factory turbo (they are for sale on the forums regularly) fix your downpipe and be on your way.  $450 later, your done!

GJ
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Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 12:47:46 AM »
GMtech, I was waiting for that comment about the warranty.  I understand thats the case and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have to bite the bullet on this one...but not for $2600 as I was quoted tonight. 

My service guy is going to call me tomorrow with all the updates.  As far as them saying the crack in the downpipe causing the turbo to leak, is there ANY feasible way that could happen??

Offline gmtech16450yz

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 12:55:59 AM »
That's what I don't understand, what is it leaking???? Oil? Water? Air? Exhaust? Muffler bearing grease? Turbo juice?

Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 01:38:04 AM »
I will be finding out tomorrow.  I'm going to make them prove to me it was the downpipe that caused the turbo leak.  If they said that the lean condition caused overheating, should I mention that the crack caused an artificial lean condition and that the engine would have run rich at that point?  I honestly have no knowledge on this and would love to gain some ammunition.

If all else fails, I'm going to do tell them to put the turbo back on and install the stock cat since the downpipe is being sent back to RPi.  I think it would be fair to say that I'll cover the labor on the cat install, but anything over that I will not pay for.  However, tonight on the phone they told me they are ordering EVERYTHING that goes around the turbo as well...gaskets, o-rings, etc.  I'm afraid that they will say the turbo cannot be put back on.  ....Then what do I do??

In the mean time, look what I found... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LNF-Turbo-Cobalt-SS-HHR-SS-K04-Solstice-GXP-Sky-Redline-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e4474186QQitemZ360312160646QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_500wt_956
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 02:04:48 AM by Vanguard »

Offline gmtech16450yz

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 02:13:32 AM »
Go back and read my post again.

If you didn't sign for any money, they need to return your car in the condition in which you gave it to them. A shop cannot do work on your car without first telling you what it will cost, and you agreeing to the amount. If they assumed it was going to be a warranty covered repair and didn't get you to agree to an estimate (before doing any work) if it wasn't covered, that's their mistake.
If you signed for or verbally agreed to pay anything, then you need to pay that amount and no more.
Any part can be put back on with the original gaskets and seals. It may leak, but it can be put back on.
If you push them, they can make the situation a lot worse.
If they've already ordered parts, they'll be more inclined to finish the job since they'll be stuck with a turbo they can't use.
Again, like I said, try to work something out where both sides give and take a little. If you plan on keeping this dealer as a place you might go back to, I'd bite the bullet and have them fix it. Be firm in questioning if it really needs a new turbo, but don't be an #ss or all you'll get is to tow home a taken apart car and have a dealer you can't ever go back to.

Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 02:38:03 AM »
What I signed for was a sheet that said "total-customer - NO COST".  On the sheet, it lists a turbo, seal, and various gaskets.  Today, they are telling me that they need to order a ton more parts from all over the country.  They currently have the parts listed on the original sheet i signed. 

Are you saying that I need to give them the cracked downpipe and have them reinstall it?  One of the issues now is that the O2 sensor is just spinning loosely in the downpipe, so there's another leak in it right there. 

F(!#$...that just got me thinking that the warranty on the downpipe will get voided because they may have broke it.   :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Offline Arabas

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 03:53:06 AM »
Vanguard,
i recently had my turbo out of the car for a big wheel upgrade.
they sanded it and they saw a small crack on the divider. they said it is superficial and nothing to worry about. most common on our cars. they also had my turbo repaired with upgraded thrust bearings and a kit  used for sealing. when i had it back in place, i noticed some gas smelling above the turbo and carbon built up on the turbo heatshield. turned out my mechanic hadn t placed any gasket.
ordered a gasket from Solo, placed it, problem solved.
now, if your turbo isn t repairable (which i think could be repairable), buy a new factory turbo, get a new rpi dp and gasket since it is covered under warranty and put it back on. cost will be  turbo, labor and coolant, almost 600-700$.
the guy selling the turbo on ebay is the same guy i bought from a spare one for myself. good guy and good prices. just make sure to ask him if the turbo has all lines and connectors on, if it is ready to plug n play.
lastly, i have to say again, that your turbo could be repairable, so it is worth checking if it could be repaired and at what cost (max 350$ from my experience).
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 09:22:18 AM »
Vanguard, any dealership can grant or refuse warranty as they see fit, but that does not make it right or wrong. The fact is that a car dealership will not warranty much of anything without prior approval from their manufacturer if it is over a certain dollar threshold. YOUR mistake was leaving the downpipe on the car when you took the car in. THEIR mistake was stating that the turbo would be covered. Doing the diagnosis only established that the turbo (apparently) had failed. When they asked for warranty the downpipe must have come up in the discussion and GM said no. Once that happens you are dead in the water. The solution is in the $365 turbo assembly on e-bay. BTW, the dealership should reassemble the turbo to the engine. If YOU are going to do the swap it would be prudent to have the car returned to your home on a rollback if there is ANY concern about how it is running. Also, whoever is going to do the work needs to be careful about purging air from the cooling system (as has been discussed often on all the Kappa forums).   
Bob Buxbaum
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Offline Arabas

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 09:41:18 AM »
swapping the turbo doesn't require the whole cooling system to be drained, only half of it (4 out of 7 or 8 liters IIRC). our tank has a valve to let air out once it is gathered on the tank (driver's side) which is the highest point of the system. not sure if special draining is required when the whole system is flushed.

maybe there is indeed a special procedure and i just haven t encountered any problem yet on mine.

nevertheles, i don t think that this turbo failure should be a problem Vanguard. just get the new cat, gasket and repair the turbo or get a new one at a a good price.
and you can check if the dealer can do the work if you provide them the materials.
this way you can prove them that $2600 is outrageous.
DDM Works Backbone and probeam
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SOLO HF Cat and Mach Shorty
Dejon Throttle Elbow
Dejon-AEM intake
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 09:54:53 AM »
swapping the turbo doesn't require the whole cooling system to be drained, only half of it (4 out of 7 or 8 liters IIRC). our tank has a valve to let air out once it is gathered on the tank (driver's side) which is the highest point of the system. not sure if special draining is required when the whole system is flushed.

maybe there is indeed a special procedure and i just haven t encountered any problem yet on mine.

nevertheles, i don t think that this turbo failure should be a problem Vanguard. just get the new cat, gasket and repair the turbo or get a new one at a a good price.
and you can check if the dealer can do the work if you provide them the materials.
this way you can prove them that $2600 is outrageous.

There would be only ONE good reason to have the dealership install a customer supplied OEM turbo, and that would be if doing so with the OEM cat (assuming Vanguard still has it) would re-establish the full factory warranty coverage of the power train. Absent the coverage, pull the car out of the dealership as the labor charge will be 25-50% higher than an independent and infinitely more expensive more expensive than doing ones self.
Bob Buxbaum
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FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline Arabas

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2010, 09:58:57 AM »
as the labor charge will be 25-50% higher than an independent and infinitely more expensive more expensive than doing ones self.
totally agree on this one
DDM Works Backbone and probeam
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Dejon Throttle Elbow
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Front Big Brake upgrade kit with Ferodo pads
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2010, 09:59:44 AM »
Added comment to Vanguard - the e-bay listing specifically states that the turbo is a) NEW, and b) for an 07 Kappa. This should be verified just to be sure. Lastly, if YOU don't buy it, I may.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 10:19:45 AM »
Well, someone bought the turbo off eBay.  I had a gut feeling I shouldn't have put that link up here...

Offline 2.0 tspeed

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 10:21:05 AM »
Waiting for what happens today :-D

Formally Slowsol with a 07 solstice gxp e85 331whp 400wtq trifecta tune
2013 verano turbo

Offline tazz

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 01:26:59 PM »
That one listed is a bit different setup than my stock turbo in my 07 GXP.  The blowoff valve has a metal cover vs a plastic cover and the wastegate adjustment rod is also setup a bit different.

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
When you say leaking are you making reference to the dark suite you showed on the pictures.
That was cause by the down pipe crack.
There is in most probability NOTHING wrong with your turbo.
I would put the stock CAT back and get the car back.
This is my opinion of course.
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Offline Vanguard

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Re: Turbo/downpipe failing, seeking advice
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2010, 02:06:47 PM »
That's the route I'm going to go...unless they can't prove the downpipe caused the turbo to fail and then want to replace the turbo under warranty.  I *might* be able to get out of this 100% free...I might have them just put the turbo back on, leave the stock cat off, and then I'll put on the cat myself.  The issue then becomes getting a new O2 sensor...the current one is stuck in the cracked downpipe.

 

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