Topic: Any Dyno's Of Redlines or GXPs on Base Trifecta Tune with Solo HiFlow Downpipe?

[MattM]

Hey! Title says it all.

I've searched and searched and searched and I can't seem to find any dyno's anywhere of a redline (or gxp) with a Trifecta base tune and Solo Hiflow downpipe. I know the typical stock redline with base trifecta numbers are around 250-280 whp and 300-315ft lbs of torque (judging by 1/4mile performance my car's 13.6 at 102 last year was right there in that range before the downpipe). I'm just really curious to see what a Solo Hiflow downpipe does to those numbers and am hopeful someone out there has a dyno of one.

[MattM]

God it sucks that this forum is so dead.  Anyway....For anyone who may need this information I did find some info in another forum.  Here it is:

Ok. Closest comparo i could find has to do with Monadzback's dynos. The first graph is a stock Redline with Trifecta tune:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/attachments/f25/104101d1549042523-any-dyno-s-redline-base-trifecta-solo-hiflow-downpipe-trifecta-dyno-2.jpg

The second one is of Monadzback's Redline with gutted cat and 25 psi trifecta tune:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/attachments/f25/104103d1549042597-any-dyno-s-redline-base-trifecta-solo-hiflow-downpipe-monadzback-trifecta-gutted-cat-26psi-dyno.jpg

This is on the same superflow dyno as well. So on the stock cat dyno with trifecta he made 264whp and 310ftlbs torque. On the second dyno with gutted cat he made 283whp and 348 ftlbs torque.

I think the really high torque increase on the second dyno has to do more with the modified tune than the gutted cat.

That said, he dynoed without the trifecta on stock car and got 232whp and 236ftlbs torque. He also dynoed after the gutted cat on the stock tune and got 253.5whp and around 250ftlbs of torque....

Essentially, I'd say he was able to get about a 20whp and 20ftlbs of torque increase with the gutted cat. That at least is some good evidence to go on. As to the differences of the tuned numbers....I would very much doubt I'd see a 38ftlb of torque increase over a stock cat. I think he may have gotten it retuned by vince after he gutted the cat. Anyway, at least we have similar circumstances to make a comparison.

Here is the stock tune stock cat dyno curve:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/attachments/f25/104105d1549043439-any-dyno-s-redline-base-trifecta-solo-hiflow-downpipe-trifecta-dyno-3.jpg

Here is the stock tune gutted cat dyno curve(again this one made 253whp and around 250 torque:
https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/attachments/f25/104107d1549043476-any-dyno-s-redline-base-trifecta-solo-hiflow-downpipe-gutted-cat-stock-tune.jpg

PS. sorry for the low quality of the "gutted cat" dyno curves...I basically took screen shots of the video he had of the dyno.

Stock Car Stock Tune:
https://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/attachments/f63/93609d1549561813-any-dyno-s-redlines-gxps-base-trifecta-tune-solo-hiflow-downpipe-monadsback-stock-car-stock-tune.jpg

Stock Car Trifecta Tune:
https://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/attachments/f63/93613d1549561845-any-dyno-s-redlines-gxps-base-trifecta-tune-solo-hiflow-downpipe-monadzback-stock-car-trifecta-dyno-2.jpg

Gutted Cat Stock Tune:
https://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/attachments/f63/93611d1549561820-any-dyno-s-redlines-gxps-base-trifecta-tune-solo-hiflow-downpipe-gutted-cat-stock-tune.jpg

Gutted Cat Trifecta Tune:
https://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/attachments/f63/93615d1549561850-any-dyno-s-redlines-gxps-base-trifecta-tune-solo-hiflow-downpipe-monadzback-trifecta-gutted-cat-26psi-dyno.png

[LatinVenom]

I can tell from history on a marathon Dyno days many years ago, there is no way a stock car will do 232 WHP, the actual figures are more in the 217 WHP, with some odd balls in the 220 WHP.

[Uranium-238]

I can tell from history on a marathon Dyno days many years ago, there is no way a stock car will do 232 WHP, the actual figures are more in the 217 WHP, with some odd balls in the 220 WHP.

Back in the day, my bone-stock Sky made 211 HP.

I think even my intake/exhaust LM7 pickup would easily top that these days.

[MattM]

I can tell from history on a marathon Dyno days many years ago, there is no way a stock car will do 232 WHP, the actual figures are more in the 217 WHP, with some odd balls in the 220 WHP.

I didnt post this for you to get stuck on the top stock numbers. 

I dont care that someone thinks it's too high.  Let's not miss the point of the post. Tge point of the post is the comparison on the same dyno.  It's for you to see the increased hp and tq as a result of the gutted cat.

Any comments on that?

[Steelmesh]

That said, he dynoed without the trifecta on stock car and got 232whp and 236ftlbs torque. He also dynoed after the gutted cat on the stock tune and got 253.5whp and around 250ftlbs of torque....

I thought torque management wouldn't allow the higher numbers with the gutted the cat, unless they opened up those parameters (those skyroadster links don't work btw).  Maybe this was stock boost or something, but they "unlocked" the torque management for these runs.  Arm chair dyno = 260 bhp * 85% = 221 whp estimate.  About a 5% difference between 221 and 232 whp using a made up loss of 15%. 

Using the stock turbo it is probably important to look closely at the exhaust side and what it can do for it, however with my car I made ~525 bhp with a single 2.5" exhaust lolol, back pressure is good right?! jk. I plan on going bigger, possibly a 3" side dump we shall see.

[MattM]

I thought torque management wouldn't allow the higher numbers with the gutted the cat, unless they opened up those parameters (those skyroadster links don't work btw).  Maybe this was stock boost or something, but they "unlocked" the torque management for these runs.  Arm chair dyno = 260 bhp * 85% = 221 whp estimate.  About a 5% difference between 221 and 232 whp using a made up loss of 15%. 

Using the stock turbo it is probably important to look closely at the exhaust side and what it can do for it, however with my car I made ~525 bhp with a single 2.5" exhaust lolol, back pressure is good right?! jk. I plan on going bigger, possibly a 3" side dump we shall see.

I think a couple of things could have happened here. 

Either once the Trifecta is added...even when it's not in effect it still turns off the learn down OR he got the car dynoed before the learn down started pulling power.  That's weird the links don't work.  I'll check them.

The links have been updated.

[MattM]

Also....I agree with you about the one Dyno that was posted.  211whp means a 20% drivetrain loss.....That is a lot.  Rear wheel drive is generally anywhere from 10-15 % loss.  20 is way high.

In fact, here is an article that quotes a white paper from the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) with regard to drivetrain loss.  In rear wheel driver vehicles you are talking as low as possibly 6% drivetrain loss.  Here is a link: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/

Here is a good quote from the article:
"Within the drivetrain itself, the primary loss sources are the differential and final drive, with further losses stemming from within the transmission, and in the case of AWD vehicles, from the transfer case. Within the transmission, as much as 30 to 40 percent of power loss can be attributed to the pump, with the clutch contributing another 20 to 25 percent. The rest of the loss within the transmission comes from seal drag, gear meshing, bearings, bushings and windage (drag on the gears caused by the gear oil). However, when dyno testing in the direct drive (1:1) gear, power is delivered directly through the mainshaft of the transmission, so the only loss sources are windage, friction and drag, resulting in total at-the-wheel losses as low as 1.5 to 2 percent, according to the published data. Differential losses tend to be considerably larger, especially in the case of RWD and AWD vehicles where the torque path is turned 90 degrees as it enters the rear diff and exits it toward the rear wheels. In the case of hypoid-type gearsets (where the gear tooth profile is both curved and oblique) that are commonly used in RWD differentials, losses in the 6 to 10 percent range are the norm, while loss from the driveshaft(s) and prop shaft(s) tend to account for about 0.5 to 1 percent of total loss, depending on how well they're balanced and how many the vehicle is equipped with. In the case of FWD vehicles, the torque path is more direct to the front wheels and the use of efficient helical final drive gears means that drivetrain losses can be as much as 50 percent lower than on RWD and AWD vehicles."

I've also seen a number of stock dynoed Sky Redlines and Solstice GXPs that have dynoed in the 220 to 225whp range. 

Regardless....that's not what we are talking about.  This is just a good comparison to see the ACTUAL benefits of a highflow or gutted cat on a Redline/GXP's performance. 

[Steelmesh]

I googled searched this here "high flow cat site:https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/" forced it to look at the LNF section.

There is a big thread in there maybe it has what you're looking for, cause I didn't see anything off the bat.  Better than bimmer or honda forum chatter at least.

[Steelmesh]

....so the only loss sources are windage, friction and drag, resulting in total at-the-wheel losses as low as 1.5 to 2 percent, according to the published data. Differential losses tend to be considerably larger, especially in the case of RWD and AWD vehicles where the torque path is turned 90 degrees as it enters the rear diff and exits it toward the rear wheels. In the case of hypoid-type gearsets (where the gear tooth profile is both curved and oblique) that are commonly used in RWD differentials, losses in the 6 to 10 percent range are the norm, while loss from the driveshaft(s) and prop shaft(s) tend to account for about 0.5 to 1 percent of total loss, depending on how well they're balanced and how many the vehicle is equipped with.

Thanks for digging this up, you and your scientific evidences... =)

1.5-2% trans
0.5-1% shafts
6-10% diff

8-13% totals

I didn't see it mention rolling resistance from the tires and also error in chassis dynamometers.  Also do the forum people post correct numbers? Probably a bunch of other variables too

For benchmarking work at the company I am at they have bizillion dollar hub dynos with high end torque sensors, those would probably be ideal.  If you got $200k or so to invest I can point you in the right direction 

[MattM]

All the information i'm posting is based on the actual dyno graph information.  I've seen another dynojet dyno where the before was 217whp and after was 274.  This all lines up.

Keep in mind too....There is another issue with these numbers.  If someone takes a stock Kappa onto a dyno with a stock clutch it's never going to deliver all of the power.  Monadz actually had a Spec Stage 3+ clutch that basically WILL NOT slip on his car when he dynoed both times.  That could be the reason his stock numbers are in the 230s as well I dunno.....

Also...the other thing to keep in mind is that if that dyno read higher than most....why did his Trifecta tuned numbers not read higher.  They are almost perfectly in the ballpark with where they should be....232 vs 264?  32 whp increase...Right in the ballpark.  Also he had 310 ft lbs of torque....That's right where it should be as well....

[wspohn]

If someone takes a stock Kappa onto a dyno with a stock clutch it's never going to deliver all of the power.  Monadz actually had a Spec Stage 3+ clutch that basically WILL NOT slip on his car when he dynoed both times. 

Sorry, I don't get that. The stock GXP clutch will not slip on a dyno nor on the road at outputs all the way up to 375-400 bhp, unless they have been previously abused and glazed.

[Uranium-238]

Sorry, I don't get that. The stock GXP clutch will not slip on a dyno nor on the road at outputs all the way up to 375-400 bhp, unless they have been previously abused and glazed.

I second that assessment. I had issues with my Kappa, but the clutch wasn't one. Certainly nothing like the issues I've got with the clutch in my Camaro.

[MattM]

From my experience and others the trifecta tune with its quick torque spike causes a lot of clutch failure.  My stock clutch had 55k miles on it and didnt slip at all.  I had the trifecta tune for two weeks and that was all she wrote.  I wasn't pounding gears quick shifting etc....i would put in second or third and let the clutch out all the way before I went wot... Didn't matter....Maybe you guys were lucky but a quick search on skyroadster or solstice forum and you can see how many stock clutches go after the trifecta.

[Sol Asylum]

Except that's not what you said, a trifecta tune removes the car from the stock category.

If someone takes a stock Kappa onto a dyno with a stock clutch it's never going to deliver all of the power. 

[MattM]

Except that's not what you said, a trifecta tune removes the car from the stock category.

You guys are absolutely ridiculous!

Sol Asylum....did you read the following post?

Sorry, I don't get that. The stock GXP clutch will not slip on a dyno nor on the road at outputs all the way up to 375-400 bhp, unless they have been previously abused and glazed.

That's the post I was replying to!

It was literally RIGHT ABOVE MY POST!

Are you trying to parse words now?

Anyway...I wanted to add some information to this thread for others who my be seeking it.  The POINT OF THE THREAD WAS TO SHOW A COMPARISON ON THE SAME DYNO OF GAINS A HIFLOW OR GUTTED CAT WOULD HAVE WITH A TRIFECTA TUNE. 

Immediately, people try to pull it off topic by talking about the stock dyno number on that particular dyno for that particular car!

I HOPE WE ARE ALL SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE THAT EVERY DYNO IS DIFFERENT!  I'm not trying to compare the numbers of a stock Kappa on this dyno to other.

Regretably Steelmesh pulled me down the vortex, and I made the mistake of trying to logically explain these numbers vs. others.  We are done with that now.  I don't care about it.

What I care about is the comparison on the same dyno before and after the cat.  if anyone has any information to provide regarding that I am all ears.....

If not....how about we stop trying to make this the pissing contest it wasn't meant to be...

[Kelu]

Everything goes down to drain when it comes to dynos.  you have to learn internet forum tuning MattM ... 

Chill MattM, everybody was trying to contribute, not to pound you down.

I think I have posted in the past before and after exhaust + tune update dynos but were not trifecta, hugely different dynos than what is usual in US, so this is my worthless contribution to this topic.

Sol Asylum: I know you know many things, how many times did you dynoed your car / kappa, you are one of those people who can feel any power increase?   

[MattM]

Well regardless I have the before 1/4 time and speed of 13.6 at 102....Once I go back this year I'll at least have updated numbers to add to the comparison.  Since I have the wot box I can replicate the same launch and shift times as well.  The only variable will be track prep, but Cecil County dragway is always very good with that so I doubt that would be a differing factor.

[Sol Asylum]

Kelu I assume you mean the Butt Dyno, so far as I am aware that's the only kind of dyno within a 3+hr drive of where I live.

Saying that a stock clutch won't hold stock power is BS assuming the clutch is in good condition, that's basically wspohns post.  He then sights a torque that it has been shown to hold. I don't know if those numbers are accurate or not.

You then jump to stock clutch not holding with Trifecta tune, which maybe true.  But your original statement was a stock clutch won't deliver stock power, which is not true.

The real reason stock dyno numbers don't match from one car to the next is a whole list of variables.  I wonder how accurate dynos really are, +/-10 or 20% maybe.

As Kelu points out arguing about dyno numbers is pointless.

[MattM]

Kelu I assume you mean the Butt Dyno, so far as I am aware that's the only kind of dyno within a 3+hr drive of where I live.

Saying that a stock clutch won't hold stock power is BS assuming the clutch is in good condition, that's basically wspohns post.  He then sights a torque that it has been shown to hold. I don't know if those numbers are accurate or not.

You then jump to stock clutch not holding with Trifecta tune, which maybe true.  But your original statement was a stock clutch won't deliver stock power, which is not true.

The real reason stock dyno numbers don't match from one car to the next is a whole list of variables.  I wonder how accurate dynos really are, +/-10 or 20% maybe.

As Kelu points out arguing about dyno numbers is pointless.

Again! You are PARSING words!  I never said the stock clutch won't HOLD stock power!  I said it won't DELIVER all the power!  It's a parasitic loss!  With stock clutch you also have the friggen stock flywheel which causes a much higher parasitic loss than a lighter Spec 3+ which almost always has the lightweight flywheel (unless you try to do what I originally did and use the stock flywheel but get it modified which caused major issues/caused my Spec stage 3 clutch to slip and made me have to get a new Spec 3 with the lighter flywheel anyway).

Spec actually did a dyno on a vette with a stock clutch then their clutch with lightweight flywheel and it gained 7 hp.  Here is the article: https://www.corvetteonline.com/news/spec-clutch-helps-to-put-it-down-and-up-your-power/

I then answered wspohn's post that said a stock clutch won't slip on a dyno all the way up to 375-400 bhp!  I talked about multiple instances where people's clutches shit the bed right after getting the Trifecta (mine included).  At no point did I EVER say a stock clutch would SLIP or NOT HOLD stock power...

Edit:  Sorry, I see where you guys are thinking I'm talking about the stock clutch slipping.  I said in my post that the stock clutch won't deliver all the power then said he had a Spec 3+ that won't slip I meant that as a bad thing since my clutch sucks in traffic...That last statement wasn't meant to imply the stock clutch slips on the dyno which causes a power loss.  Having had a stock clutch slip once in fourth gear which ruined it I know if it slipped like that on a dyno the clutch would be ruined...I'm going to assume you guys would logically know I wasn't saying that.  I obviously know every stock clutch would be ruined on the dyno every time someone went.

[LatinVenom]

MattM.
I understand what your questions is but your test is the only one that matters. Same car same Dyno with the parameters that you have described, any other input would be worthless since it is not
 on the same dyno and not the same car. I would assume that the numbers from a high flow cat and the numbers from a gutted cat would be fairly close.
 In theory the shape and volume of each cat would probably contribute to the differences it would make.
Just my 2 cents.

[MattM]

I wish I would have gotten mine dynoed before I got the dp put on. Sucks I didn't..

[Uranium-238]

So I've reread the entire thread so I could get on track.

I find your 20 hp/ 20 ft/lbs values reasonable, try and follow my bench racing logic:

A 430 HP LS3 makes ~500 crank HP with headers and removing the four (yes, four) cats and a proper tune. (Disclaimer: Total bench racing numbers, using GM quoted stock HP and some quotes from engine dyno operators) But, if you assume the headers get you ~30 HP (a reasonable assumption) you can chalk up the remainder to the cats (40 HPish net => 20 per bank => about what you saw with a 4-cylinder)

But here's the real question: Does it matter? The high flow cat is going to make better power than the stock one, and will in turn get beat by an offroad pipe. If the goal is to prioritize where to spend money to go fast sooner, I'd still say get the high flow cat. If you need to have a cat it's better IMO to have one designed for use on modified vehicles, and it'll be ready to support bigger mods down the road.

[MattM]

Wow!  An ls3 has FOUR cats!  I didn't know that!  That's crazy!

Yeah..wh3n I owned m6 supercharged probe gt I'd get dyno and 1/4 mile times after mods to compare for people later.  It's also fun to see what your changes have done.  I attempted to dyno the sky after the new clutch but they cancelled my appointment before hand.  I was just surprised that no one had any definitive numbers (even solo who makes the downpipe).
I guess I underestimated just how small a group the Kappa would have bc of the low production..

[Steelmesh]

Regretably Steelmesh...

I assumed only my mother thought this